Senate Bill 5 Targets Collective Bargaining for Elimination!

[ernest_t_bass]

Yeah, entirely different situation. I do see your point, but I feel the people I agree with have made point after point with no counter and its gotten to the point where this is the only way to deal with the issue.

What do you want me to counter? My take on the whole this is that I don't want to see a huge hit in my own personal income, let alone the entire state. YES, I know that it is needed. I understand fully. I'm just fighting to keep it.

[sleeper]

What do you want me to counter? My take on the whole this is that I don't want to see a huge hit in my own personal income, let alone the entire state. YES, I know that it is needed. I understand fully. I'm just fighting to keep it.

Okay cool. Fight on your own time. If you call in sick to protest, you should be fired. Take a personal day if you have to be there.

[I Wear Pants]

What do you want me to counter? My take on the whole this is that I don't want to see a huge hit in my own personal income, let alone the entire state. YES, I know that it is needed. I understand fully. I'm just fighting to keep it.

So you're willing to hurt everyone so you don't have to. Great.

[O-Trap]

If you call in sick to protest, you should be fired. Take a personal day if you have to be there.

This is certainly how I would be treated by my employer, so I'm A-OK with it.

[ernest_t_bass]

Certainly. I think the reason this topic was brough to light was because people out there are seeing (like I have, and have mentioned) educators that are receiving above-average compensation (something with which, in and of itself, I have no objection whatsoever) for considerably below-average teaching, but simply remaining a resolute supporter of the union that continues to ensure that they see the same increases that the good, hard-working educators receive.

Shouldn't we go after that part of it, then, and not benefits? I don't like merit based pay, but I also don't like protection of poor teachers. I could see the possibility of eliminating tenure.

I've said this before, but for some reason it doesn't hold much discussion... WHY NOT PUT MORE BLAME AND WEIGHT ON ADMINISTRATORS FOR LETTING IT GET TO THIS?

Oops, didn't mean to yell

[FatHobbit]

So you're willing to hurt everyone so you don't have to. Great.

perhaps there are other places the budget could be cut, instead of making all the regular joe state employees suffer?

[FatHobbit]

WHY NOT PUT MORE BLAME AND WEIGHT ON ADMINISTRATORS FOR LETTING IT GET TO THIS?

Do they have collective bargaining?

[ernest_t_bass]

Okay cool. Fight on your own time. If you call in sick to protest, you should be fired. Take a personal day if you have to be there.

LOL. Don't generalize me. I take my personal days to golf!

Another thing I have to remind people... it is the LARGE districts (TPS, Col. PS, Cin. PS, Cle. PS, etc.) that are dragging the rest of the state down. Small town districts that are doing outstanding jobs should not be punished for them.

[ernest_t_bass]

So you're willing to hurt everyone so you don't have to. Great.

What does that even mean?

[I Wear Pants]

Shouldn't we go after that part of it, then, and not benefits? I don't like merit based pay, but I also don't like protection of poor teachers. I could see the possibility of eliminating tenure.

I've said this before, but for some reason it doesn't hold much discussion... WHY NOT PUT MORE BLAME AND WEIGHT ON ADMINISTRATORS FOR LETTING IT GET TO THIS?

Oops, didn't mean to yell

The administrators who cannot fire bad teachers unless they do something terrible because the union will sue the hell out of the school?

[centralbucksfan]

Only 5 states do NOT have collective bargaining for teachers. Those states and their ranking on ACT/SAT scores are as follows:
South Carolina -50th
North Carolina -49th
Georgia -48th
Texas -47th
......Virginia -44th
Wisconsin -- WITH its collective bargaining for teachers -- is ranked 2nd in the country. Let's keep it that way.

And you can see where education will be headed in the state of Ohio if this bill passes. FACTS!!

[ernest_t_bass]

Do they have collective bargaining?

Administrators do not have unions. Some districts do. TPS admins do.

[I Wear Pants]

What does that even mean?

You realize that we cannot sustain the pay/benefits situation with teachers. Yet you're fighting to keep them because you don't like the reality. You'd rather not do anything to fix the problem because it's inconvenient for you.

[ernest_t_bass]

The administrators who cannot fire bad teachers unless they do something terrible because the union will sue the hell out of the school?

I'll keep referring to TPS dragging down the state

[I Wear Pants]

Only 5 states do NOT have collective bargaining for teachers. Those states and their ranking on ACT/SAT scores are as follows:
South Carolina -50th
North Carolina -49th
Georgia -48th
Texas -47th
......Virginia -44th
Wisconsin -- WITH its collective bargaining for teachers -- is ranked 2nd in the country. Let's keep it that way.

And you can see where education will be headed in the state of Ohio if this bill passes. FACTS!!

Correlation != causation.

[ernest_t_bass]

You realize that we cannot sustain the pay/benefits situation with teachers. Yet you're fighting to keep them because you don't like the reality. You'd rather not do anything to fix the problem because it's inconvenient for you.

I'm saying I want to look everywhere.

[sleeper]

LOL. Don't generalize me. I take my personal days to golf!

Fair enough. You can tell I'm a tad bit peeved about the Wisconsin situation, it wasn't entirely directed at you.

[O-Trap]

Shouldn't we go after that part of it, then, and not benefits? I don't like merit based pay, but I also don't like protection of poor teachers. I could see the possibility of eliminating tenure.

If that alone would get rid of the teachers that don't want to teach, I'd be all for that. However, I see teachers five years older than me, very outspoken advocates of the union base, and they seem to be immune anyway. They can't even have ten years under their belts (10 at the most, I would think).

Moreover, I still contend that there should simply be better pay for better teachers. I'm not talking a HUGE margin. Just one deemed proportional to the level of quality ... which would be established by reviewing the individual teacher.

I've said this before, but for some reason it doesn't hold much discussion... WHY NOT PUT MORE BLAME AND WEIGHT ON ADMINISTRATORS FOR LETTING IT GET TO THIS?

Oops, didn't mean to yell

I agreed, to some degree, though I know of administrations that feel handcuffed by the local union base. If the administration had the freedom to act like a normal employing entity, I'd put the blame COMPLETELY on their shoulders for continuing to employ a leech.

[sleeper]

Correlation != causation.

+1

You'd think a highly educated professional would understand this.

[centralbucksfan]

No, evaluating teachers and judging their pay based on standardized test scores isn't a good idea. That's clear.

Its not only clear, its pretty proven it does NOTHING. Look at the studies!! More FACTS!

http://peabody.vanderbilt.edu/NCPI_POINT_Findings.xml

http://www.usatoday.com/news/educati...erit-pay_N.htm

[ernest_t_bass]

I agreed, to some degree, though I know of administrations that feel handcuffed by the local union base. If the administration had the freedom to act like a normal employing entity, I'd put the blame COMPLETELY on their shoulders for continuing to employ a leech.

The thing is, there ARE ways to get rid of poor teachers. It just takes time and effort. Many (MANY) admins just say "screw it."

[I Wear Pants]

I'm saying I want to look everywhere.

Everywhere translates to "elsewhere".

[I Wear Pants]

Its not only clear, its pretty proven it does NOTHING. Look at the studies!! More FACTS!

http://peabody.vanderbilt.edu/NCPI_POINT_Findings.xml

http://www.usatoday.com/news/educati...erit-pay_N.htm

For the millionth time. Merit based pay != pay based on test scores.

No one is suggesting that. We're suggesting that there be a method to evaluate and reward quality teachers while not rewarding/removing bad teachers.

[ernest_t_bass]

Everywhere translates to "elsewhere".

LOL. I'm just going to give you my keyboard, since you want to say things for me, and change what I'm saying to fit your own side better.

[O-Trap]

Only 5 states do NOT have collective bargaining for teachers. Those states and their ranking on ACT/SAT scores are as follows:
South Carolina -50th
North Carolina -49th
Georgia -48th
Texas -47th
......Virginia -44th
Wisconsin -- WITH its collective bargaining for teachers -- is ranked 2nd in the country. Let's keep it that way.

And you can see where education will be headed in the state of Ohio if this bill passes. FACTS!!

Correlation != causation.

Thank you.

I think I'm going to prove something the same way.

At the point of the year in which people drink the most hot chocolate on average, there is the least violent crime taking place.

Therefore, WE MUST DRINK MORE HOT CHOCOLATE TO PREVENT VIOLENT CRIME!