Christian (Believers) Huddlers...

[ernest_t_bass]

Before I start this thread, I ask that those of you who are not believers, and couldn't care less about this topic please:
-Refrain from turning this into a religious debate.
-Refrain from insulting the beliefs mentioned here.
-Refrain from insulting huddlers for their beliefs.
-Refrain from "thread-shitting."
-If you choose to do any of the following, it just goes to show your childishness.

Now that I have said that, I know that people will still do the above, but I had to mention it anyway.

To fellow believers, Christians, whatever. In your day-to-day (spiritual) life, what is the toughest part of living that life? What do you find that challenges your own personal beliefs most? What brings you the most "trouble" in your spiritual life?

For me, personally, it is "what if I'm wrong?" There are so many different "religions" out there, and each one preaches that they are the right one. Which one is right? What if I'm wrong?

I don't consider myself a religious person. I was raised non-denominational, but I'd consider myself a baptist.

What troubles you the most?

[2trap_4ever]

I believe the,"what if I'm wrong" question comes and goes in everyone's life, believers or not. For me it's just doing the right things, I was raised Baptist but due to my church I feel they have left me, they see things differetnly than I do. Does that make me a back person, no at least not in my mind. I believe that our God is a loving God and he understands that we can't be Christ like 24 hours a day, but as long as you pray to him and ask for forgiveness then all is well.

I also believe(thanks to my church) that I can get just as much out of my Bible sitting at home, as long as my family is with me and we are sharing in the Bible and praying to God and giving our time to him then we ourselves are a church, it says so much in the Bible. The last thing is the wickedness in our community, it is hard to live a Christian life when you so many people against you,but you will have this in any area of the country in todays world.

[ernest_t_bass]

Another for me is the "why do good people, who don't believe, go to hell?"

- If I go my entire life, living a good life, but never hear about Christ, do I go to hell?
- If I live that same EXACT life, but I hear about and REJECT Christ, do I go to hell?
- If I live that same EXACT life, but I hear about and ACCEPT Christ, do I then go to heaven?

In all three scenarios, the life lived is the EXACT same.

That, for me, as a TOUGH one.

[cbus4life]

Another for me is the "why do good people, who don't believe, go to hell?"

- If I go my entire life, living a good life, but never hear about Christ, do I go to hell?
- If I live that same EXACT life, but I hear about and REJECT Christ, do I go to hell?
- If I live that same EXACT life, but I hear about and ACCEPT Christ, do I then go to heaven?

In all three scenarios, the life lived is the EXACT same.

That, for me, as a TOUGH one.


Agreed, Ernest.

This one has destroyed my "belief," essentially, because it bothers the hell out of me and i've yet to get an answer to it that makes any sense whatsoever.

I want to know why some of my best friends, some of the most wonderful human beings i've ever interacted with, apparently won't be going to heaven because they're not Christian.

[2trap_4ever]

They answer to the above post is this,,,In order to get into heaven you have to believe that there is one true God and he is the creator and that his son died on the cross for your sins and rose again to be with his father.

"No man will make it to heaven on good works alone", I believe that is what the Bible says(or it is something close to that)

[eersandbeers]

Another for me is the "why do good people, who don't believe, go to hell?"

- If I go my entire life, living a good life, but never hear about Christ, do I go to hell?
- If I live that same EXACT life, but I hear about and REJECT Christ, do I go to hell?
- If I live that same EXACT life, but I hear about and ACCEPT Christ, do I then go to heaven?

In all three scenarios, the life lived is the EXACT same.

That, for me, as a TOUGH one.


Agreed, Ernest.

This one has destroyed my "belief," essentially, because it bothers the hell out of me and i've yet to get an answer to it that makes any sense whatsoever.

I want to know why some of my best friends, some of the most wonderful human beings i've ever interacted with, apparently won't be going to heaven because they're not Christian.



I actually think this is why many people are turning away from Christianity and moving into their own spirituality.

But if you are a Christian, the only way to Heaven is through Jesus. So to answer the original question, you won't be going to Heaven unless you put your belief in Jesus.

There is no way to tell if one religion is the correct over the others. All are based on faith and not any type of measurable evidence so it is all up to what you believe.


I think Gandhi said it best when he wrote, "Religions are different roads converging to the same point. What does it matter that we take different road, so long as we reach the same goal. Wherein is the cause for quarrelling?"

[cbus4life]

I like that quote, Eeers.

I liked what my friend told me, before i moved away, "it is a shame that we'll be going to two different heavens." At least he believed that we'll both be "rewarded" in the afterlife for living a good life here in earth.

And, also, i am also moving into my own, individual type of spirituality and away from Christianity as a whole.

[ernest_t_bass]

They answer to the above post is this,,,In order to get into heaven you have to believe that there is one true God and he is the creator and that his son died on the cross for your sins and rose again to be with his father.

"No man will make it to heaven on good works alone", I believe that is what the Bible says(or it is something close to that)


Yes, I understand what the bible says, but I just don't get the scenario. In each of the examples, the life is lived the EXACT same way. EXACT. The ONLY difference is that in the one example, the person has accepted Christ.

It's just something that has been bothering me a lot lately.

[ernest_t_bass]

Ephesians 2:8-10 (New International Version)

8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

[Con_Alma]

...

I want to know why some of my best friends, some of the most wonderful human beings i've ever interacted with, apparently won't be going to heaven because they're not Christian.



What makes you think they would want to be there? Do you really want them there if they don't want to be??

If heaven is an eternal spiritual state of being in the presence of God and His love and hell is a state of not being in His presence why is this such a bad thing if your friends go to hell when they don't believe in the birth, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ?

[cbus4life]

Well, i would imagine they wouldn't want to suffer eternal damnation.

So, because they happened to grow up Muslim, they'll be spending eternity in hell?

Or do they go to the Muslim version of "paradise?"

Or are they just screwed, despite being wonderful people, and acting in a "Christ-like" manner that any true Christian would take pride in.

[Con_Alma]

Eternal damnation in the eyes of a Christian is being without the Creator. That's not very damning to

People don't "happen" to be Muslim. Don't they choose to be? If they do they believe they will be eternally in bliss so you have nothing to worry about.

The other side of the coin is that you when/if you are in heaven you won't care who else is/is not there/ The pure peaceful bliss and love you will be feeling coming from the Father will be yor focus not others.

[ernest_t_bass]

This is turning into a debate, which I didn't want it to. Can we go back to the original question, please? There are other threads out there, where there is debate.

My purpose in creating this thread, was to share my troubles, as a Christian, and hopefully get some Christian insight, and shared troubles from other Christian brothers/sisters. I am not asking or trying to be right, nor am I looking for the right answer.

So...

To fellow believers, Christians, whatever. In your day-to-day (spiritual) life, what is the toughest part of living that life? What do you find that challenges your own personal beliefs most? What brings you the most "trouble" in your spiritual life?

[Con_Alma]

Didn't think I was debating here at all. When someone posts "I want to know" it is often received as an invitation or solicitation for views and inputs. I offered such.

Topics tend to mature and expand from the original ideas and points. It happens all the time and has created some of the best threads. I'll try and comply with your request, however and stay on point. Sometimes a topic can stray too quickly so I'll do my part in trying to keep that from happening.

In my day to day spiritual life the toughest part is maintaining a balanced life that is entirely centered around my beliefs and core convictions. Then again I once read that I was imperfect and that was to be expected but not accepted.

Challenges to my beliefs are a result of my own laziness and lack of ongoing effort to strengthen my relationship with our Creator.

"Trouble" is brought by the same.

[I Wear Pants]

Another for me is the "why do good people, who don't believe, go to hell?"

- If I go my entire life, living a good life, but never hear about Christ, do I go to hell?
- If I live that same EXACT life, but I hear about and REJECT Christ, do I go to hell?
- If I live that same EXACT life, but I hear about and ACCEPT Christ, do I then go to heaven?

In all three scenarios, the life lived is the EXACT same.

That, for me, as a TOUGH one.

That is a tough one and one that I don't pretend to have the answer for.

I will say that if there was a person who lived a good life and had never heard of god or of Jesus and when he died he was asked if he accepts Christ as his savior and replies "no" in honesty. If that man is damned to hell then god is an asshole.

Quoting the "you don't get to heaven through good works alone" thing doesn't explain that. The scenario Ernest posted goes against every meaning of what is right and fair that we've been taught.

Probably one of the things I struggle the most with as well.

[ernest_t_bass]

Didn't think I was debating here at all.

I don't remember calling you out, saying that you were.

[Con_Alma]

...nor did I suggest you were specifically calling me out but rather after reading your comments about the thread turning into a debate I was choosing to pre-empt any possibility that my offerings might be considered debating another's.

I did, however, refer to you later in my post with the words, "your request". Sorry if I was confusing in my wording. I'll be interested in reading others responses to your questions. It could be a good thread. Thanks for starting it.

[ernest_t_bass]

^^^
I really don't know why this is all been going through my head lately. Probably b/c of the texts I have been choosing to read.

I feel like I am on the edge of some existentialist melt-down, or something.

[Con_Alma]

If you find the answers to your questions it could lead to a solidification of your beliefs. Isn't that ultimately what you are seeking...not matter what those beliefs are?

[ernest_t_bass]

I don't think I'll ever find the "answers" to my questions, which is where the whole "faith" thing comes in, with Christ. No one will have the answers until we meet our creator... at least we HOPE he'll fill us in! :)

[Con_Alma]

You could be right but I hope you keep looking.

[ernest_t_bass]

Wouldn't that be some cruel joke if God didn't give us the answers in heaven? Or, if he said that there never really were "answers."

The reason I don't know if I will find my answers is b/c I am not too sure how hard I am actually looking. These things perplex me, but I'm not sure if I am looking in the right places to find these answers.

Perhaps I should pick up the bible? I think I should.

[pmoney25]

This is what I posted in the other thread on Serious Business forum

For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness, and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus. (Romans 2:14-16)

It is also mentioned by Paul that those who follow the law will be judged by the law and that God judges all people righteously. I believe it also says those that never heard of the law will be judged by the law that God has placed in their hearts.

So I take this as if you follow the spirit/laws of Jesus Christ, you can enter into heaven without knowing his name. I think we are judged on what we know and how we act on it. So if you know about Jesus and fail to accept his as your savior, then you will go to Hell.

Also for this whole thing to work, God does give us all the law in our heart and our conscience and it is that reason if we disobey that we will be punished.

It is just like having children or employees at your job, if you tell them the law, make sure they understand the law, follow up with them and they still break the law, they deserved to be punished.

[ernest_t_bass]

Thank you, PMoney. I remember reading it over there.

[cbus4life]

Eternal damnation in the eyes of a Christian is being without the Creator. That's not very damning to

People don't "happen" to be Muslim. Don't they choose to be? If they do they believe they will be eternally in bliss so you have nothing to worry about.

The other side of the coin is that you when/if you are in heaven you won't care who else is/is not there/ The pure peaceful bliss and love you will be feeling coming from the Father will be yor focus not others.


Thanks for the response.

So, in the bolded section, are you saying that their is a possibility that there is more than one afterlife, depending on your belief structure, and that everyone ends up in some sort of eternal "bliss" if they live a life according to their particular religion. Honest question.

[hangonsloopy]

Another for me is the "why do good people, who don't believe, go to hell?"

- If I go my entire life, living a good life, but never hear about Christ, do I go to hell?
- If I live that same EXACT life, but I hear about and REJECT Christ, do I go to hell?
- If I live that same EXACT life, but I hear about and ACCEPT Christ, do I then go to heaven?

In all three scenarios, the life lived is the EXACT same.

That, for me, as a TOUGH one.


I think it's hard to say that you could live the EXACT same life, because if you truly accept Christ, your life isn't the EXACT same. You would hopefully live for Him, study His word, etc. You wouldn't do that if you never hear about Him or reject Him. If you accept Him and he's in your heart your life couldn't be the same as if He wasn't. That's just my thoughts on that.

As for the original question, I struggle most with actually sitting down and reading the Bible daily. I just seem to end up spending my time doing things that aren't important and really a waste. (TV, video games, movies etc.) I constantly tell myself to just be disciplined and do it, but it's something I always struggle with.

[ernest_t_bass]

I think it's hard to say that you could live the EXACT same life, because if you truly accept Christ, your life isn't the EXACT same.

So you would hope. However, the situation is merely hypothetical, with no variables.

[ernest_t_bass]

As for the original question, I struggle most with actually sitting down and reading the Bible daily. I just seem to end up spending my time doing things that aren't important and really a waste. (TV, video games, movies etc.) I constantly tell myself to just be disciplined and do it, but it's something I always struggle with.


I can see your struggle here. I'd say that most Christians struggle the same, but not just with reading the bible.

Like, going to church. We don't want to spend 1-hour there, but we'll go sit a few hours through a movie or athletic event.

[Devils Advocate]

Earnest.... I can't help but think that you are worried about being "cheated" out of something if you chose to believe one way or another.
I am a firm believer that no one needs a church to re-enforce thier beleifs. It is only natural for you to question your faith.... or someon elses faith when things are contradictory in you mind.

Ask that "little voice" within yourself you questions in either contemplation or prayer. Just be prepared to listen (or see) the answers that you ask.

[CenterBHSFan]

Well, I guess first off I should mention that me and religion (for religions sake) have had a rocky road. But I still believe in my heart, soul and mind that there is God.
I also believe that there is only 1 God, but different cultures call him by a different name(s) and/or worship differently. But that is another discussion altogether.

There are two things that I struggle with the most.

- Patience
There are too many days when I have very little of it, and I know that it affects and has effect on the people (loved ones) around me. Thankfully, those people do have patience with me and let alot of my faults go :)

- Decisions
What I mean by that is this; The decisions and choices that I make - I often wonder about my intentions.
For instance: I ask myself
"Did you decide to do that because you knew it was the right thing to do in your mind?
Or did you make that decision/choice because it came from your heart?"

I really struggle with that issue because of the situation of what I'm doing in life right now. For those that don't know, and I really don't want to go into it too much right now, I take care of my mom and stepdad.
So, my questions of that nature are definitely personal and have everything to do with what I believe about God.
I often humor myself by thinking that God surely must have had it with me and my questioning by now ;)

And then I usually get fed up worry about it and just amend the two questions together. Which brings me back around again to patience LOL

[CenterBHSFan]

And BTW,

I too, find myself having the same struggles that alot of the other posters have had/go through.

[hangonsloopy]

As for the original question, I struggle most with actually sitting down and reading the Bible daily. I just seem to end up spending my time doing things that aren't important and really a waste. (TV, video games, movies etc.) I constantly tell myself to just be disciplined and do it, but it's something I always struggle with.


I can see your struggle here. I'd say that most Christians struggle the same, but not just with reading the bible.

Like, going to church. We don't want to spend 1-hour there, but we'll go sit a few hours through a movie or athletic event.


Yeah, I used to not really want to go to church. Our church is blessed with a young adult service that has been a huge blessing. Our pastor is awesome, but for me, the music makes me want to be there. Thankfully when we started this service we started a band that played music that was appealing to younger people. I am lucky enough to be the drummer. Ever since we have grown so much and I love going to church. I think regular church can be a turn off to younger people because the music really is boring.

I'm sure it's not that way for everyone, but for me good, loud, rock style music in church is no the norm and it makes me, and many other people, excited to come to church. Because they are energized, not bored with old hymn's from an organ.

[ernest_t_bass]

Devils Advocate (or shall I say Tippy?) ... Your post makes a lot of sense. Thank you.

[ernest_t_bass]

Since I started the topic of "what gives you the most trouble day-to-day" I will add this as well:

My life (the path I have chosen in my 28 years) has lead me to be an extreme cynic, and I have a HUGE problem with authority figures. I have a big enough problem, that I cannot stand ANYONE telling me what to do. If I am to do something, then I want it to be of my own free will, and not something that is "expected" of me.

So, that being said... one of my other "biggest" struggles would be completely letting go. I always feel that I MUST be in control of my life, the surroundings in my life, and everything that happens in my life. The minute something goes wrong, the cynicism comes right out.

[Con_Alma]

Eternal damnation in the eyes of a Christian is being without the Creator. That's not very damning to

People don't "happen" to be Muslim. Don't they choose to be? If they do they believe they will be eternally in bliss so you have nothing to worry about.

The other side of the coin is that you when/if you are in heaven you won't care who else is/is not there/ The pure peaceful bliss and love you will be feeling coming from the Father will be yor focus not others.


Thanks for the response.

So, in the bolded section, are you saying that their is a possibility that there is more than one afterlife, depending on your belief structure, and that everyone ends up in some sort of eternal "bliss" if they live a life according to their particular religion. Honest question.


Can you expand on the question inclusive of more than one afterlife? I'm not sure I understand it.

Keep in mind In the bold area above I was commenting on the potential beliefs of a Muslim whereby they would have a certain expectation of afterlife that existed without the acceptance of Christ.

[Websurfinbird]

Forgive my ignorance on the subject, but I have a problem with the overall Christian idea of heaven. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it true that you can be a mass murderer and still go to heaven so long as you confess your sins and accept Christ? At the same time, an Atheist who devotes his/her entire life to helping others does not get in for being a non-believer.

I am Jewish, and I must say that I really do love my religion's whole approach to heaven. The fact is the focus simply isn't on "getting in to heaven," but rather living in such a way that gives you the best life here on Earth. Yes we do believe in heaven and hell, but probably not in the same way other religions do. Judaism allows for debate on many topics, so you can likely find multiple descriptions of the after life. Here is one of my favorites:

I once ascended to the firmaments. I first went to see Hell and the sight was horrifying. Row after
row of tables was laden with platters of sumptuous food, yet the people seated around the tables
were pale and emaciated, moaning with hunger. As I came closer, I understood their
predicament. Every person held a full spoon. But their arms were splinted with wooden slats, so
they could not bend either elbow to bring the food to their mouths. It broke my heart to hear the
tortured groans of these poor people, as they held their food so near but could not consume it.
Next I went to visit Heaven. I was surprised to see the same setting I had witnessed in Hell —
row after row of long tables laden with food. But in contrast to Hell, the people here in Heaven
were sitting contentedly talking with each other, obviously sated from their sumptuous meal. As I
came closer, I was amazed to discover that here, too, each person had his arms splinted on
wooden slats that prevented him from bending his elbows. How, then, did they manage to eat?
As I watched, a man picked up his spoon and dug it into the dish before him. Then he stretched
across the table and fed the person across from him! The recipient of this kindness thanked him
and returned the favor by leaning back across the table to feed his benefactor.
I suddenly understood. Heaven and Hell offer the same circumstances and conditions. The
critical difference lies in the way the people treat each other.

[wizecracker]

Another for me is the "why do good people, who don't believe, go to hell?"

- If I go my entire life, living a good life, but never hear about Christ, do I go to hell?
- If I live that same EXACT life, but I hear about and REJECT Christ, do I go to hell?
- If I live that same EXACT life, but I hear about and ACCEPT Christ, do I then go to heaven?

In all three scenarios, the life lived is the EXACT same.

That, for me, as a TOUGH one.


I was raised Catholic and I've always been taught by priests that you are a good person you can go to heaven even if you follow another religion or if you have never heard of christ.

The biggest problem for me is corruption throughout the history of the church along with the fact that the church has continued to change and make up new rules over time. I think some rules are bullshit so I simply try to live a good life and do what Jesus taught.

[Websurfinbird]

Another for me is the "why do good people, who don't believe, go to hell?"

- If I go my entire life, living a good life, but never hear about Christ, do I go to hell?
- If I live that same EXACT life, but I hear about and REJECT Christ, do I go to hell?
- If I live that same EXACT life, but I hear about and ACCEPT Christ, do I then go to heaven?

In all three scenarios, the life lived is the EXACT same.

That, for me, as a TOUGH one.


I was raised Catholic and I've always been taught by priests that you are a good person you can go to heaven even if you follow another religion or if you have never heard of christ.

The biggest problem for me is corruption throughout the history of the church along with the fact that the church has continued to change and make up new rules over time. I think some rules are bullshit so I simply try to live a good life and do what Jesus taught.


Sounds like a good way to look at things. I'm sure Jesus would want more followers like you.

[jmog]

1. In my everyday walk with God my most troubling/provoking aspect of my spiritual life is my thought lift. Matthew 5-7 talks all about our thought life and it is my most convicting set of scriptures.

2. My only "question" I struggle with is this. What happens to someone who never heard about Jesus? I understand what the Bible says about people who have heard and rejected or didn't accept him, but what about the old question "the guy in middle of no where Africa who never heard" is always in the back of my mind. What happens to those people?

[jmog]

Oh, and my belief on the topic I just listed and the similar one posted by Ernest is this...

If you truly never heard of Christ, then you live by the same standards they did in OT times, live a good life and you make it to heaven.
If you have heard of Christ, no matter how good or bad you lived your life it comes down to whether you accepted or rejected him on whether you go to heaven.

I'm not saying I'm 100% right, just saying what I believe to be what the Bible implies.

[jmog]

Forgive my ignorance on the subject, but I have a problem with the overall Christian idea of heaven. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it true that you can be a mass murderer and still go to heaven so long as you confess your sins and accept Christ? At the same time, an Atheist who devotes his/her entire life to helping others does not get in for being a non-believer.

I am Jewish, and I must say that I really do love my religion's whole approach to heaven. The fact is the focus simply isn't on "getting in to heaven," but rather living in such a way that gives you the best life here on Earth. Yes we do believe in heaven and hell, but probably not in the same way other religions do. Judaism allows for debate on many topics, so you can likely find multiple descriptions of the after life. Here is one of my favorites:

I once ascended to the firmaments. I first went to see Hell and the sight was horrifying. Row after
row of tables was laden with platters of sumptuous food, yet the people seated around the tables
were pale and emaciated, moaning with hunger. As I came closer, I understood their
predicament. Every person held a full spoon. But their arms were splinted with wooden slats, so
they could not bend either elbow to bring the food to their mouths. It broke my heart to hear the
tortured groans of these poor people, as they held their food so near but could not consume it.
Next I went to visit Heaven. I was surprised to see the same setting I had witnessed in Hell —
row after row of long tables laden with food. But in contrast to Hell, the people here in Heaven
were sitting contentedly talking with each other, obviously sated from their sumptuous meal. As I
came closer, I was amazed to discover that here, too, each person had his arms splinted on
wooden slats that prevented him from bending his elbows. How, then, did they manage to eat?
As I watched, a man picked up his spoon and dug it into the dish before him. Then he stretched
across the table and fed the person across from him! The recipient of this kindness thanked him
and returned the favor by leaning back across the table to feed his benefactor.
I suddenly understood. Heaven and Hell offer the same circumstances and conditions. The
critical difference lies in the way the people treat each other.


Actually if you are Jewish you should completely understand the "mass murderer" getting to go to heaven if he confesses.

In ancient Judaism (old testament, Torah, etc) your sins were completely forgiven if you confessed and had the right sacrafice (usually animal). You confessed your sins to the priest/High Priest/rabbi and the priest sacraficed some animal on the Arc of the Covenant. If you did this all of your sins were forgiven by Yahweh (God).

In Christianity the High Priest you confess your sins to is God/Jesus and Jesus was that particular sacrafice.

Its a perfect symbolism between the two religions.

[ernest_t_bass]

Here's another issue, with which I struggle. Creationism vs. geology. Notice, I didn't say evolution.

(Note: I don't believe man came from monkeys, however I do believe in survival of the fittest. I don't feel like debating [on this thread, anyway]. That is just my belief on that one).

I want to believe what many Christian scholars will say, that "the earth has not been around billions of year," but when I hear "facts" based on geological principles, I find those hard NOT to believe. I think that many Christian scholars will say that it was all by the great flood, but I just don't know if I buy it.

[jmog]

I can explain the geology thing well having a background in chemistry.

One of the most commonly used radiometric dating technique is Uranium-Lead.

The background used in U-Pb dating system is basically that Uranium decays down in something like 14 steps (8 'major' steps) to lead which is where its finally "stable" and doesn't decay anymore. The half life of this decay is 4.47 billion years. Half life of radioactive isotopes is basically if I have 1 pound of it now, in 4.47 billion years half of it will be lead and half uranium.

Now, that's the background, the assumptions they use is that in a piece of rock, every bit of the lead isotope they find, they assume it came from uranium. They don't allow for the idea that some lead could have been there already or the fact that there are around 8 other radioactive elements that also decay down to the same lead isotope. They assume that 100% of the lead isotope came from uranium.

In radioactive decay, when an atom releases an "alpha particle", equivalent to a helium nucleus (atom with no electrons) it releases enough energy to burn a microscopic "halo" around the atom. Even though uranium has 14 steps to get to lead, in only 8 of those steps does it release an alpha particle.

This is important because when electron microscopes look at these rocks, the average # of "halos" typically is in the range of 3 or 4 (can't remember off the top of my head) which indicates a polonium isotope as the source, not necessarily uranium.

So, in the end, the assumptions made by the geologists completely alter the results.

I could give similar commentary on Carbon 14 and any other radiometric dating techniques.

[ricola]

[quote=ernest_t_bass]
Here's another issue, with which I struggle. Creationism vs. geology. Notice, I didn't say evolution.

(Note: I don't believe man came from monkeys, however I do believe in survival of the fittest. I don't feel like debating [on this thread, anyway]. That is just my belief on that one).

I want to believe what many Christian scholars will say, that "the earth has not been around billions of year," but when I hear "facts" based on geological principles, I find those hard NOT to believe. I think that many Christian scholars will say that it was all by the great flood, but I just don't know if I buy it.
[/quote


It's very refreshing to see a dicussion concerning religion, and Christianity in particular here, and have it be civil, not condescending or inflammatory. kudos to you Ernest for keeping it that way.
Some of the issues brought up here; ie the struggles, etc are ones many of us have. Trying to live a Chrstian life in a very un-christian and dark world is trying at times to say the least. I think the key is focusing on the person of Jesus: WWJD has become so modernized and trivialized, it's become the butt of jokes instead of a way of life. Too many churches and too many "Christians" don't live like Jesus, and thus the world's view of Christianity and Christians is not at all what I think Jesus intended. He would be appalled if walked the earth today and saw what was done and said in the name of Christianity. having said that, I way too often fail to live that life---it's certainly my struggle to try to show the love of Jesus on a daily basis when the world is basically full of jerks and plain old mean and nasty people.
Speaking directly to the creation question raised above: I consider myself somewhat of a scientist, and have a special interest in reading books on creation, physica, chemistry, etc. I have no problem accepting what science has to say and creation. The Big Bang theory, almost by definition, supports creation as it says basically something (the universe) came out of nothing some 15 billion years ago. A number of good books have been written on the subject--some good ones being "The Genesis Question" and "The Science of God".

[74Leps]

There's plenty of reason to doubt the dating methods of modern science, as described above by jmog: many assumptions are made when dating rocks. The REAL answer is, no one knows how old any rock really is unless the rock was formed in modern times. For example, rocks from a Hawaiian volcano that erupted were 'dated' as being anywhere from 2 million to 20 million years old (using argon-potassium dating method) when in fact the rocks were formed less than 100 years ago. The dating material can migrate in and out of rocks; there is no way to tell if a rock had how much 'parent' vs 'daughter' element in it when first formed. Scientists who claim they know how old the rocks are, are calibrating it according to a belief system more than science.

Food for thought: blood cells and blood vessels that were still elastic have been found in Tyrannasaurus bones in the Southwest US. Evolution believers don't have an answer for what is staring them in the face except to proclaim a 'miracle' (sound like science or religion?) of sorts for the blood vessels and blood cells to still be there in the shape they are in, or try to explain away the cells as some sort of mineral transformation. They are ignoring the possibility that the dinosaur is not 68 million years old BECAUSE OF THEIR BELIEF IN EVOLUTION, not because of science.

The belief in evolution is the basis for the moral relativism of our times; affecting such issues as abortion, gay marriage, euthanasia, etc. Christians should arm themselves with a good book on apologetics and read up on materials from places such as Creation Ministries International or the Institute for Creation Research. Both sites often feature recent findings in science that support the Creation/Christian viewpoint.

Here's one on geology: http://www.icr.org/article/5140/

Here's an article from the Institute for Creation Research: the claim that humans evolved from some ancestor of both man and apes has been shown false.

http://www.icr.org/article/5136/

[believer]

The belief in evolution is the basis for the moral relativism of our times; affecting such issues as abortion, gay marriage, euthanasia, etc. Christians should arm themselves with a good book on apologetics and read up on materials from places such as Creation Ministries International or the Institute for Creation Research. Both sites often feature recent findings in science that support the Creation/Christian viewpoint.

True but good luck with that. Haven't you learned yet? Liberalism means being open-minded to all points of view except, of course, Christian ones.

[jmog]

74leps brought up a good example of what I talk about when I give creation vs evolution evidence in front of churches (I have done this at about 5 or 6 churches now) and when I teach it to my junior high sunday school class.

Hemoglobin was found in said dinosaur fossil and biologists KNOW that hemoglobin only "survives" several thousand years (have it in my notes but can't remember off the top of my head) and they have no answer on how this dinosaur fossil has hemoglobin surviving in it.

[ernest_t_bass]

My only geological (self) explanation, is that "in the beginning, God created the Heavens and the earth." Between that time and the time God created man in His own image, I can honestly see there being millions/billions/trillions of year. If God is an everlasting deity, then that is but a blink of an eye to him.

[jmog]

My only geological (self) explanation, is that "in the beginning, God created the Heavens and the earth." Between that time and the time God created man in His own image, I can honestly see there being millions/billions/trillions of year. If God is an everlasting deity, then that is but a blink of an eye to him.


Ah, the "gap theory" between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2. Its a very viable theory, still completely kills evolution, just doesn't kill the "billions" of years we hear from geologists.

It kills evolution because even in the gap theory you only have animals on the planet for less than 10,000 years with the Bible time frame.

[cbus4life]

The belief in evolution is the basis for the moral relativism of our times; affecting such issues as abortion, gay marriage, euthanasia, etc. Christians should arm themselves with a good book on apologetics and read up on materials from places such as Creation Ministries International or the Institute for Creation Research. Both sites often feature recent findings in science that support the Creation/Christian viewpoint.

True but good luck with that. Haven't you learned yet? Liberalism means being open-minded to all points of view except, of course, Christian ones.


What does this have to do with Liberalism?

And, that is a pretty sweeping generalization, and not really based on anything substantial.

Hell, even the ACLU has defended the rights of Christians in the past.

Take a deep breath. I enjoy your posts, but this whole line you throw out all the time is getting old.

[FatHobbit]

Ah, the "gap theory" between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2. Its a very viable theory, still completely kills evolution, just doesn't kill the "billions" of years we hear from geologists.

It kills evolution because even in the gap theory you only have animals on the planet for less than 10,000 years with the Bible time frame.


You're assuming 10,000 years is the gap.

[adamy35]

If you guys have an hour and half or so to watch a video, I think it will explain how science and the Bible are really in sequence with eachother when it comes to the big bang and the universe being around for 15 billion years. The scientist is Gerald Schroeder and he's an MIT trained scientist who's worked with the best in the world. He's also written books explaining this, just search his name on Amazon.com.

The video is "The Science of God" by Dr. Gerald Schroeder if you wanna search for it and watch more of him. I can also link it to ya here:

Video Link (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7143844201875642538&ei=kUNHS-21F9SclAfNoonODw&q=dr.+gerald+schroeder&hl=en&view=3&dur=3#)

I found this video about 2 weeks ago and I now feel I have a greater understanding in how everything was started and it's starting to make more sense.

[jmog]

Ah, the "gap theory" between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2. Its a very viable theory, still completely kills evolution, just doesn't kill the "billions" of years we hear from geologists.

It kills evolution because even in the gap theory you only have animals on the planet for less than 10,000 years with the Bible time frame.


You're assuming 10,000 years is the gap.


No I'm not at all, great Genesis 1, and reread what I said.

The "gap theory" talks about a gap between the creation of the universe and the creation of life, aka between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2 (basically, or whatever verse the first life is made, I don't have my Bible with me at the moment).

[FatHobbit]

Ah, the "gap theory" between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2. Its a very viable theory, still completely kills evolution, just doesn't kill the "billions" of years we hear from geologists.

It kills evolution because even in the gap theory you only have animals on the planet for less than 10,000 years with the Bible time frame.


You're assuming 10,000 years is the gap.


No I'm not at all, great Genesis 1, and reread what I said.

The "gap theory" talks about a gap between the creation of the universe and the creation of life, aka between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2 (basically, or whatever verse the first life is made, I don't have my Bible with me at the moment).


The bible says the gap was 10,000 years?

[jmog]

The bible says the gap was 10,000 years?


The Bible doesn't acknowledge there is a gap at all, that's a "theory" made by humans.

The Bible timeline from creation of life until now is less than 10,000 years.

To answer your next question "where does it say that" I point to the boring to read geneologies in the Bible. They were there for 1 main reason (to show the geneology of Jesus Christ) and a minor reason, to give time frames for all of the OT.

[FatHobbit]

My only geological (self) explanation, is that "in the beginning, God created the Heavens and the earth." Between that time and the time God created man in His own image, I can honestly see there being millions/billions/trillions of year. If God is an everlasting deity, then that is but a blink of an eye to him.


Ah, the "gap theory" between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2. Its a very viable theory, still completely kills evolution, just doesn't kill the "billions" of years we hear from geologists.

It kills evolution because even in the gap theory you only have animals on the planet for less than 10,000 years with the Bible time frame.








The bible says the gap was 10,000 years?


The Bible doesn't acknowledge there is a gap at all, that's a "theory" made by humans.

The Bible timeline from creation of life until now is less than 10,000 years.

To answer your next question "where does it say that" I point to the boring to read geneologies in the Bible. They were there for 1 main reason (to show the geneology of Jesus Christ) and a minor reason, to give time frames for all of the OT.


Ernest said "Between that time and the time God created man in His own image, I can honestly see there being millions/billions/trillions of year. If God is an everlasting deity, then that is but a blink of an eye to him." As the bible says that god created everything in 6 days, I am assumining that means a day is not 24 hours to god. (That assumption might be the key to my not understanding where you get 10,000 years from.)

You said "It kills evolution because even in the gap theory you only have animals on the planet for less than 10,000 years with the Bible time frame." If we are assuming a day is not 24 hours to god, I'm not quite sure where the 10,000 years comes from.

And if a day is 24 hours to god, then I fail to see how there can be a gap between the creation of man and animals.

[ernest_t_bass]

Exactly... the concept of a "day" to God could not be our own concept. Man created time.

[adamy35]

Everything that you guys have been talking about in your last 5 posts after mine is in the video I linked. I highly recommend watching it, it makes a lot of sense.

[jmog]

1. Gap between 1:1 and 1:2 can still be viable even if a day is 24 hours. If you read it close, 1:1 really isn't technically included in "day 1".

2. The only comment I have to the length of creation days is this. After each "day" the Bible says "And the evening and the morning was the ___ day". It doesn't say and many evenings and mornings, it says evening and morning. Now, a person who takes the Bible literally would call this a 24 hour period. A person who takes most of the Bible as figurative would say "well, it just meant a beginning and an ending symbolically with evening and morning. The end of an 'era' so to speak".

See, even as someone who believes in 24 hour creation days, I can argue "for" the days being long periods of time as well :).

[jmog]

Everything that you guys have been talking about in your last 5 posts after mine is in the video I linked. I highly recommend watching it, it makes a lot of sense.


Watched it long ago, I agree with some parts, don't agree with others, but the ideas are very well thought out for sure.

[74Leps]

The belief in evolution is the basis for the moral relativism of our times; affecting such issues as abortion, gay marriage, euthanasia, etc. Christians should arm themselves with a good book on apologetics and read up on materials from places such as Creation Ministries International or the Institute for Creation Research. Both sites often feature recent findings in science that support the Creation/Christian viewpoint.

True but good luck with that. Haven't you learned yet? Liberalism means being open-minded to all points of view except, of course, Christian ones.


What does this have to do with Liberalism?

And, that is a pretty sweeping generalization, and not really based on anything substantial.

Hell, even the ACLU has defended the rights of Christians in the past.

Take a deep breath. I enjoy your posts, but this whole line you throw out all the time is getting old.


I didn't mention liberalism, but believe humanism based on evolution, which is untrue, has led to the moral decay of this country.

Humanism has been embedded in our public education systems - promoting evolution as fact. And in our universities for several generations now. Evolution is not based on science, it's based on a faith/religion.

Humanism relies on the 'goodness' of man, not any higher source, to be able to solve/overcome all problems. The problem is, that what is considered good is relative to nothing other than man's opinions - moral relativism. It's increasingly in our courts and politics. And moral relativism is a slippery slope.

Show me in the Bible where gay marriage is OK with God.

Some quotes on humanism:

"Humanism is not new. It is, in fact, man's second oldest faith. Its promise was whispered in the first days of the Creation under the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil: 'Ye shall be as gods.'"
-- Whittaker Chambers

"I am convinced that the battle for humankind's future must be waged and won in the public school classrooms by teachers who correctly perceive their role as the proselytizers of a new faith... these teachers must embody the same selfless dedication as the most rabid fundamentalist preachers, for they will be ministers of another sort, utilizing a classroom instead of a pulpit to convey humanist values in whatever subject they teach... The classroom must and will become an arena of conflict between the old and new, the rotting corpse of Christianity, together with all its adjacent evils and misery, and the new faith of humanism, resplendent in its promise of a world in which the never-realized Christian ideal of 'love thy neighbor' will finally be achieved."
-- John Dunphy, Humanist Magazine, Jan/Feb, 1985

"Education is thus a most powerful ally of humanism. What can the theistic Sunday schools, meeting for an hour once a week, do to stem the tide of a five-day program of humanistic teaching?"
-- Charles Francis Potter, a signer of the 1933 Humanist Manifesto, in "Humanism: A New Religion", 1930

"(E)very child in America entering school at the age of five is insane because he comes to school with certain allegiances to our founding fathers, toward his parents, toward belief in a supernatural being, toward the sovereignty of this nation as a separate entity... It's up to you teachers to make all these sick children well by creating the international children of the future."
-- Dr. Chester M. Pierce, Professor of Education and Psychiatry, Medicine and Graduate School of Education, Harvard University, in a 1972 address to the Association for Childhood Education International in Denver

[Captain Cavalier]

It's very refreshing to see a dicussion concerning religion, and Christianity in particular here, and have it be civil, not condescending or inflammatory. kudos to you Ernest for keeping it that way. Some of the issues brought up here; ie the struggles, etc are ones many of us have. Trying to live a Chrstian life in a very un-christian and dark world is trying at times to say the least. I think the key is focusing on the person of Jesus: WWJD has become so modernized and trivialized, it's become the butt of jokes instead of a way of life. Too many churches and too many "Christians" don't live like Jesus, and thus the world's view of Christianity and Christians is not at all what I think Jesus intended. He would be appalled if walked the earth today and saw what was done and said in the name of Christianity. having said that, I way too often fail to live that life---it's certainly my struggle to try to show the love of Jesus on a daily basis when the world is basically full of jerks and plain old mean and nasty people.

Very nice post ricola.

I too agree that "trying to live a Chrstian life in a very un-christian and dark world is trying at times to say the least." is probably my biggest struggle. Not to mention when you're with friends and something comes up that you don't agree with and you have to make a decision. I try to remember His Beatitude: "Blessed are you when people insult you and persecute you, and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of Me."

Unfortunately, this too, IMO, is true "too many churches and too many "Christians" don't live like Jesus, and thus the world's view of Christianity and Christians is not at all what I think Jesus intended." If we don't set a good example then or faith will tend to lose credibility.

ernest,

It's only human to ask questions. I may offer Luke 11:5-9. Persistence...seek and you shall find. I know it sounds easier said than done but make time to be alone in prayer and open your mind to His voice.

- If I go my entire life, living a good life, but never hear about Christ, do I go to hell?
- If I live that same EXACT life, but I hear about and REJECT Christ, do I go to hell?
- If I live that same EXACT life, but I hear about and ACCEPT Christ, do I then go to heaven?

I tend to also think that one probably couldn't live the "exactly" the same life when one rejects Christ while the other accepts Him. Yet I also believe that "accepting" Christ means more than just believing He existed. It means to make an effort to be more like Him.

About the mass murderer who confesses...one needs to repent as well. Confession is more like, yes I did it. Repentance is, I'm sincerely sorry and wish not to repeat my offense and make an effort not to. God knows our heart and truly knows if one has truly repented.

I agree, this has been a very civil thread. Kudos to everyone.

[ernest_t_bass]

I tend to also think that one probably couldn't live the "exactly" the same life when one rejects Christ while the other accepts Him. Yet I also believe that "accepting" Christ means more than just believing He existed. It means to make an effort to be more like Him.


Yes, I understand that, but in the situation I listed, I want there to be no variables.

Situation:

- If I go my entire life, living a good life, but never hear about Christ, do I go to hell?
- If I live that same EXACT life, but I hear about and REJECT Christ, do I go to hell?
- If I live that same EXACT life, but I hear about and ACCEPT Christ, do I then go to heaven?

In that situation, the ONLY variables are the ENDS of the sentences, not the life lived. The life lived is EXACTLY the same in each.

[ricola]

re: your "situation":

I don't know what happens in scenario #1. Only God knows that. I personally find it hard to believe that God would treat that same African tirbesman that "lived a good life" and never had a chance to hear about God the same as many here who have heard and not only reject Him , but often do it in a beligerant way. But there are certainly those who believe that, and use that as a reason to become missionaries to "the uttermost parts of the world"
I think the Bible is clear on 2 and 3: If you hear and reject you go to hell, if you hear and accecpt you go to heaven. The life lived (i.e. good works, etc) has nothing to do with where you end up.

[ernest_t_bass]

I think the Bible is clear on 2 and 3: If you hear and reject you go to hell, if you hear and accecpt you go to heaven. The life lived (i.e. good works, etc) has nothing to do with where you end up.


Yep, I know the biblical reference, and I guess that is why I have a tough time with the situation. In each situation, the person lived the exact same life... mirrors of each other. Yet, one gets punished, and the other does not.

This is a TERRIBLE comparison, but it's like refusing to answer the question, "Who's your daddy?" ... "Me? OK, come on in." In that situation, God sounds like a bouncer.

[ricola]

Kinda like the Biblical refernce: You're offering a free meal to anyone who accepts. Whoever accepte the invitation gets to come in and eat; those who don't accept the invitation miss out on the meal The invitation is the same to everyone; it's not the server's fault who accepts or declines.

[ernest_t_bass]

Yes, the biblical "meal" reference is definitely better than the "bouncer" reference! lol

[Captain Cavalier]

One may need to remember that not all "good works" are pleasing to God. For example, if one gives a lot to charity for the sole reason of getting noticed or personal gain, God will not be pleased with him. "Beware of practicing your righteousness before men to be noticed by them; otherwise you have no reward with your Father who is in heaven. Matthew 6:1

So two could live the same life but only God knows their intentions and therefore will pass judgement accordingly.

"But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven". Matthew 10:33

I also do not see God condemning anyone who has never had the chance to accept Him.

[ernest_t_bass]

Again, and I hate to keep bringing this up, b/c you have very good points, which all make great sense.

The "intentions" of each person are another variable. Intentions are not to vary. Like in economics, when looking at a demand curve:

Ceteris paribus... all other things held constant. The variables are the three mentioned in the scenarios.

I know... it's tough to look at it in black/white, b/c in life, there are too many "it depends." In these scenarios, throw out all the "it depends."

[believer]

What does this have to do with Liberalism?

And, that is a pretty sweeping generalization, and not really based on anything substantial.

Hell, even the ACLU has defended the rights of Christians in the past.

Take a deep breath. I enjoy your posts, but this whole line you throw out all the time is getting old.


I didn't mention liberalism, but believe humanism based on evolution, which is untrue, has led to the moral decay of this country.

Humanism has been embedded in our public education systems - promoting evolution as fact. And in our universities for several generations now. Evolution is not based on science, it's based on a faith/religion.

Humanism relies on the 'goodness' of man, not any higher source, to be able to solve/overcome all problems. The problem is, that what is considered good is relative to nothing other than man's opinions - moral relativism. It's increasingly in our courts and politics. And moral relativism is a slippery slope.


Precisely. Moral relativism at the heart of liberalism. The problem is those who subscribe and blindly cling to it cannot see that secular humanism is indeed a faith (religion) in and of itself. It's worship of self which, as you mention, has been in the human experience since God made us free-agents.

[74Leps]

And, as I pointed out with the above quotes from humanists - a State religion is being mandated under the guise of so-called science. It has been going on for a long time. And look at the results of this 'moral relativism' in our education systems and in our families.

[ernest_t_bass]

Starting to debate again. Anyone else care to share any struggles?

[DeyDurkie5]

Starting to debate again. Anyone else care to share any struggles?


If you lead your life as a good person, helping others and trying to be the best person you can, you should have no struggle in what you believe. At the end of your life, you can look back and honestly have contempt with how you lived your life then no matter what you believe you will go into death knowing that A. if there is a heaven your going to be there or B. if it is just nothing and your dead for good, you will at least have lived your life the way you would want it to be.


If you question your faith, you probably are starting to realize that it isn't what's best for people...Being the best person you can and supporting your friends and family is what truly matters, not devoting hours upon hours of time to something you really arne't sure about. I mean i'm only 21 and I don't believe in the idea of a religion, just giving you my two cents on the matter!

[tigerballonline]

Sounds to me the biggest struggle everyone has is the same. I have read 4 pages where everything was about the individual, well thats problem #1, it is not about you or how you feel, it is about God and his getting glory. God is to be glorified through the Son, Jesus could have taken the easy way out and not came to die for mans sins, but he did it for the joy set before him. Faith is not about the individual it is about glorifying God, of course everyone fails to live up to the expectation, but that is where Grace comes in. It is not about how much you work for God, but how much you allow him to work for you. There is nothing that anyone can do for God that he did not give them first. He is the giver and the gift. If you think you are doing good for God, that is what the pharisees did, and thought God would reward them, but Jesus called them white washed tombs. I am a worm who does not deserve my next breathe, and will not begin to believe that God owes me anything. If you wonder why God chooses some and not others, you are looking at it wrong, you should look at it as why would God choose anyone, for none deserve it.

[Ghmothwdwhso]

Sounds to me the biggest struggle everyone has is the same. I have read 4 pages where everything was about the individual, well thats problem #1, it is not about you or how you feel, it is about God and his getting glory. God is to be glorified through the Son, Jesus could have taken the easy way out and not came to die for mans sins, but he did it for the joy set before him. Faith is not about the individual it is about glorifying God, of course everyone fails to live up to the expectation, but that is where Grace comes in. It is not about how much you work for God, but how much you allow him to work for you. There is nothing that anyone can do for God that he did not give them first. He is the giver and the gift. If you think you are doing good for God, that is what the pharisees did, and thought God would reward them, but Jesus called them white washed tombs. I am a worm who does not deserve my next breathe, and will not begin to believe that God owes me anything. If you wonder why God chooses some and not others, you are looking at it wrong, you should look at it as why would God choose anyone, for none deserve it.


I don't disagree with anyone's religious beliefs, how could I, it is their belief.

What I contend, is that religion is a way for the human mind to try and contemplate the unknown. No more or no less.

Those that don't believe in a religion, possess a mind set that is strong enough to contemplate that our life is just part of nature, nothing more, nothing less.

[74Leps]

Christianity is not technically a religion, as religions require certain efforts to attain (being good enough by works) salvation. Christianity is a relationship between the person and God, and one is saved by simply believing God's Word - faith. The apostle Paul says a man who does no works at all, (and in the original text is in the present tense - continuing to do no works) but believes in a God who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness. If you believe God created, Jesus his son died on the cross for all sins, rose from the dead to overcome death, and makes intercession for us, welcome to eternity. Works are for rewards.

Man is helpless to save himself; and as that is true, he also is helpless to maintain his salvation by trying to live up to a certain standard. Instead, the Christian will find God working in him, if the person will allow, to change him/her into the person they should be. Each person has a different level of faith, and some change immediately, some take a long time - some struggles are pretty hard to overcome.

We all struggle with our failures in many areas of life. But we don't give up, we are not defeated because of our faith in what God has done. Death doesn't have its sting with Christians. Read the book of Job - the guy had it all, one of the richest men on earth at the time he lived, and lost everything, was sitting in the dirt with boils on his skin, and was being tormented by his so-called friends about how he had messed up. He never gave up on God, and God didn't give up on him.

Christianity - the true evolution of mankind is not physical at all; it's spiritual. And those who can reach beyond the physical will find the eternal.

The greatest love of all is not love of self, but forgetting one's self in love for others (read that in a newspaper), and that seems to be the theme of the Christian Bible.

As to the above post from Ghmothwdwhso - for one, this is a thread for Christian huddlers. For two, Christianity is not a religion. For three, life only comes from life and that's backed by science and common sense. The first cause of life follows the laws of cause and effect (the basics of science):

The first cause of life had to be alive, all knowing, all powerful (the first cause of the universe), capable of being everywhere at once, and PERSONAL, to be the cause for personalities in people - GOD.

Those that don't believe in a creator, do so with a mind whose logic is contrary to the basics of science as we know it.

[ernest_t_bass]

74, very good post. Thanks for sharing.

[74Leps]

I might add that Paul also says, because we are at liberty - FREE (and I believe that most of our Founding Fathers understood that when setting up this country's Constitution) doesn't mean we have a license to sin; one of the fruits of the spirit is self-control - good works have great value, and as best we can, we are to show our Christianity in our lives.

Paul also says something like this: "The good that I want to do I find myself not doing, and what I know I shouldn't do, that's what I do end up doing." Oh wretched man that I am, who will save me from this body of death?"

Thanks be to God.

'nuff preachin', I'll step back. I'm a sinner who needs God's grace every day.

[tigerballonline]

One thing you will not find in the Bible is the term "free will". people have made that up, because they want to believe they can do good for God.

[ricola]

agree 74 (and tigerball above). great post(s) and accurate assessment of the Christian faith. Paul--perhaps the most inflential Christian of all time---were he alive today would probably post some of the same things here we have: struggles to live the life we want and should, and struggle to do the "right" thing. He, or we, can never be "good" enough. True faith and true grace are concepts so foreign to the world; in some ways it's almost "too easy": eternal life *seems* like it should only be able to be gained by outperforming everyone else, when the reality is not that at all.
thanks everyone for your sharing and God bless.

[74Leps]

Christ overcame death, no one else has. Muslims and Buddhists and others reject him as God.

God is perfect. Everything he made was perfect. God did not, however, make man incapable of making bad choices, so free will was entirely involved. Adam and Eve wouldn't have ever sinned if free will wasn't involved - THE CHOICE whether to trust God or instead believe a skillful liar - Satan.

Only God (God is perfect love) could create life. But love's weakness is that love must be voluntary - it's a choice. Adam and Eve were totally responsible for their actions.

God's standard for being acceptable to heaven is perfection. Religions teach that one can attain 'heaven' by living up to a standard. Christianity teaches that no one can be good enough to earn heaven, it's a Gift from God - Grace means unmerited favor. Christ, the Word, the son of God, overcame death and because he overcame death he is the door to heaven - thru his perfect life we are considered perfect by simple belief.

Satan tried to ruin mankind to prevent humans from their rightful place, as heirs with Christ. As heirs with Christ, they would be above the angels, of which Lucifer was No. 1. So selfishness (vanity) on Lucifer's part was his downfall. He became "Satan" which means "adversary." He's been trying to ruin mankind ever since.

The Bible says the 'earth groans and travails (in pain)' like a woman about to give birth, waiting for the curse to be lifted, and the Sons of God to be revealed. In God's time, it will be. That time is closer every day. The wages of sin is death. But the gift of God is eternal life, and it's free. The price has been paid.

[O-Trap]

I don't disagree with anyone's religious beliefs, how could I, it is their belief.

What I contend, is that religion is a way for the human mind to try and contemplate the unknown. No more or no less.

Those that don't believe in a religion, possess a mind set that is strong enough to contemplate that our life is just part of nature, nothing more, nothing less.


I would suggest this is incredibly simplistic as a view. It sounds similar to the sentiments of Jesse Ventura when discussing belief in that which is above the natural existence.

I might argue that strength of mind has nothing to do with that which one is able to consider. I don't think a categorical claim can be made, of course, but I'd be willing to wager that I'm not the only one who rejects the notion that there is nothing beyond natural existence not because of the gaps, but because of the problems.

I'd encourage everyone to not use such a sweeping brush as you just did, as well. Broad strokes are more prone to mistakes.



One thing you will not find in the Bible is the term "free will". people have made that up, because they want to believe they can do good for God.


When did the Calvinism/Arminianism debate come up? I don't think this is the thread for it.

[BRF]

Be a good person. Help your fellow man whenever you can. That is the way to heaven. Jesus would approve.

[BigAppleBuckeye]

Good discussion here ... if I may jump in:

I actually posed this on that "other" Huddle website months ago, so I apologize for the repurposed inquiry, however I heard some interesting feedback so I thought I would mine deeper. I am not Christian, nor do I scoff at Christians' beliefs, so I ask the Christians ... why are you Christian? Is it because your parents were Christians, and you were simply raised that way? Are you born-again? Did you grow up unaffiliated, study the Christian faith, and feel that it was right for you? A combination of these things?

In other words, is your faith based on logic? On family custom? Is it blind? Do you question your Christian faith?

[wizecracker]

My family raised me christian but I was taught by my Catholic teachers to question my faith because it will one day strengthen me. I don't think my religion is necessarily based in logic but my belief in God is.

[ernest_t_bass]

My spiritual life has been different.
- Raised Christian
- Re-dedicated (born again) when I was 19
- Up and down since then
- Now in the whole questioning phase, as I see how religion can ruin people

(I will say that the heart of my beliefs have never changed)

[Captain Cavalier]

why are you Christian? Is it because your parents were Christians, and you were simply raised that way? Are you born-again? Did you grow up unaffiliated, study the Christian faith, and feel that it was right for you? A combination of these things?

Born and raised Catholic. Now I'm Catholic because I choose to be and somewhat born again...that is, I'm taking it more seriously and striving to live as God's will wants me to.

[cbus4life]

Christ overcame death, no one else has. Muslims and Buddhists and others reject him as God.

God is perfect. Everything he made was perfect. God did not, however, make man incapable of making bad choices, so free will was entirely involved. Adam and Eve wouldn't have ever sinned if free will wasn't involved - THE CHOICE whether to trust God or instead believe a skillful liar - Satan.

Only God (God is perfect love) could create life. But love's weakness is that love must be voluntary - it's a choice. Adam and Eve were totally responsible for their actions.

God's standard for being acceptable to heaven is perfection. Religions teach that one can attain 'heaven' by living up to a standard. Christianity teaches that no one can be good enough to earn heaven, it's a Gift from God - Grace means unmerited favor. Christ, the Word, the son of God, overcame death and because he overcame death he is the door to heaven - thru his perfect life we are considered perfect by simple belief.

Satan tried to ruin mankind to prevent humans from their rightful place, as heirs with Christ. As heirs with Christ, they would be above the angels, of which Lucifer was No. 1. So selfishness (vanity) on Lucifer's part was his downfall. He became "Satan" which means "adversary." He's been trying to ruin mankind ever since.

The Bible says the 'earth groans and travails (in pain)' like a woman about to give birth, waiting for the curse to be lifted, and the Sons of God to be revealed. In God's time, it will be. That time is closer every day. The wages of sin is death. But the gift of God is eternal life, and it's free. The price has been paid.


Buddhist's have various folks/deities who overcome death as well. Hell, the Boddhisatva, a being who stays on earth, in a state of perpetual suffering and delays going into nirvana, whatever you want to call it, in order to help other human beings to achieve that state. The being suffers, and chooses to suffer, in order to help others to reach that place of eternal bliss.

Sounds rather Christ-like, no?

[O-Trap]

Good discussion here ... if I may jump in:

I actually posed this on that "other" Huddle website months ago, so I apologize for the repurposed inquiry, however I heard some interesting feedback so I thought I would mine deeper. I am not Christian, nor do I scoff at Christians' beliefs, so I ask the Christians ... why are you Christian? Is it because your parents were Christians, and you were simply raised that way? Are you born-again? Did you grow up unaffiliated, study the Christian faith, and feel that it was right for you? A combination of these things?

In other words, is your faith based on logic? On family custom? Is it blind? Do you question your Christian faith?


I am, believe it or not, convinced of the truth of the Judeo-Christian Scriptures because I logically find them to be the most likely. I am convinced of a personal, loving God because of my experience, but prior to that, I began studying the Bible with the intent to put the Christian worldview to rest in my mind. I was raised a Christian ... son of a pastor ... but while my parents were excellent examples, most of the church I grew up with was terrible at answering my questions, and sadly played a leading role in me not ever really becoming a Christian myself.

Too many of my questions were answered with "because God made it that way" or "because we have faith" or "his thoughts are higher than our thoughts."

Now, I'm not opposed to any one of these being true, but when it's ALL you hear, and no rational possibility can even be posed, it gets tiring and disenfranchising very quickly.

I felt like the only person in the sea of a congregation that was actually questioning what I thought.

I began reading. Mackey, Camus, Russell, Husserl, Dawkins, Sagan, Nietzsche ... and I became rather hard-line convinced that there was no God, no spirit, no heaven ...

Or, you could say I adopted the famous words of Carl Sagan: "The cosmos is all there was, is, or ever will be."

I began getting on message boards (specifically the NationStates forum) and blogs (had a Xanga page dedicated to it) and debating Christians. I'd like to say I was pretty good at it.

It hit me one day, though, that I'd never really given Christianity its best shot ... that is to say, I'd never heard the best it had to offer. I was asking Sunday school teachers and lay people. Dare I say, most of those people are not what we would consider biblical experts.

Now, I was still pretty unsure, but I figured I'd give it a fair shake. I began reading a few Christian authors. William Lane Craig, Alvin Plantinga, and J. P. Moreland were probably my favorite. I was fascinated by Moreland's book Christianity and the Nature of Science. Most of these did not necessarily convince me of Christianity, but they did let me consider strongly the possibility of a non-physical element of existence ... even a deity. As questioning is always good, they forced me to question my scientific naturalism worldview.

I then determined that, as I did not have any particular interest in college, I would attend college and major in religious philosophy. During that time, I came to believe that biblical monotheism was the most reasonable worldview.

It was over a long period of time. It's not a story where I had some grand emotional experience and "came to a belief" in God. It was over time.



My spiritual life has been different.
- Raised Christian
- Re-dedicated (born again) when I was 19
- Up and down since then
- Now in the whole questioning phase, as I see how religion can ruin people

(I will say that the heart of my beliefs have never changed)


Questioning is never a bad thing. Those Christians who treat questioning as a bad thing do not have enough faith in their beliefs, because they are afraid that their beliefs cannot satisfy the questions asked. A strong faith can withstand probing questions and is made stronger by them.

[74Leps]

Buddhist's have various folks/deities who overcome death as well. Hell, the Boddhisatva, a being who stays on earth, in a state of perpetual suffering and delays going into nirvana, whatever you want to call it, in order to help other human beings to achieve that state. The being suffers, and chooses to suffer, in order to help others to reach that place of eternal bliss.

Sounds rather Christ-like, no?


If you want to follow Buddha, have a nice day. If one wants to believe in Boddhisatvas go ahead.

Christ was not 'just' a prophet. He was God in that he was who spoke all of creation into existence, not a 'god'. (John 1:1)

Christ also died 'once for all' - no need to continue to help others achieve that state by their own effort. Simple belief.

As to the post directly above this one - As the Apostle Paul states in the Bible, Christianity is 'a reasoned faith' - not a blind faith.

[BigAppleBuckeye]

Buddhist's have various folks/deities who overcome death as well. Hell, the Boddhisatva, a being who stays on earth, in a state of perpetual suffering and delays going into nirvana, whatever you want to call it, in order to help other human beings to achieve that state. The being suffers, and chooses to suffer, in order to help others to reach that place of eternal bliss.

Sounds rather Christ-like, no?


If you want to follow Buddha, have a nice day. If one wants to believe in Boddhisatvas go ahead.

Christ was not 'just' a prophet. He was God in that he was who spoke all of creation into existence, not a 'god'. (John 1:1)

Christ also died 'once for all' - no need to continue to help others achieve that state by their own effort. Simple belief.

As to the post directly above this one - As the Apostle Paul states in the Bible, Christianity is 'a reasoned faith' - not a blind faith.


When trying to defend Christianity to a non-believer, you may want to refer to something other than the New Testament. Obviously if I don't believe that Jesus is God, then I logically would scoff at "proof" that is cited from the New Testament.

It's like me trying to prove to you that Spiderman is God, and backing my statement with references from Marvel Comics.

[cbus4life]

I wasn't trying to bash Christianity, only mentioning that Christianity isn't alone in having a figure who acts as Christ did, many have their own versions, all rather similar, in my opinion.

No way one can prove one or the other is wrong, all a matter of faith. I don't follow Buddhism, just think some of their beliefs and Christianity's coincide, and i find that to be interesting.

World religions are not all that different, at their very core.

Do good things, have a good afterlife. Treat others with respect and love. Etc., Etc., Etc.

[74Leps]

There are flood stories all over the world from many different cultures, suggesting that there really was a gigantic flood in the distant past that destroyed the world that was. Almost seventy percent of fossils are found in rock formed by the action of water (the majority of the other fossils are found in igneous rock - volcanic) - a cataclysmic event. Fossil seashells have been found on the tops of mountains.

The details vary widely however. But when the stories are scrutinized, the Bible's account holds up much better than others. For example, the shape of the boat according to scripture, had nearly the same dimensions of today's barges - not built for speed or comfort, but built to withstand heavy waves/turbulence without tipping over.

A Mesopotamian account recently discovered/interpreted says the survivors escaped in a round craft made of cheap material - hardly believable.

Other flood accounts have the survivors escaping in some small raft, or something else that would not have been able to withstand such a disaster.

Interestingly, one of the oldest accounts other than the Bible's about the flood comes from China, the main character being someone named "Nuuh"

Before someone posts that Moses copied a story from, for example, the story of Gilgamesh, there's no evidence of that, in fact it's most likely that most others copied from Moses as he had access to the Library of Alexandria, as he was considered Egyptian royalty and was highly educated for his time. The Bible account is the most believable because of details such as the shape/size of the boat. Note: according to the Bible, Ham, one of the sons of Noah, founded Egypt. Moses could have copied the original account from one of the sons of Noah, a survivor of the flood.
So-called experts suggesting that Moses got his story from copying from the Gilgamesh epic have an agenda.

And interestingly, the reason for the destruction of the earth was because violence filled the earth, people had forgotten God, and had given themselves over to unnatural desires. Marriage had become a joke (marrying and giving in marriage). Sounds almost like today. From Peter: In the last days scoffers will say "where is the promise of his coming, for since the foundation of the world things continue as they have." Peter answers, that is how it was just before the flood.

The above example is just one of many showing the Bible to be superior, not only in its historical accuracy, but in its message.

[BigAppleBuckeye]

There are flood stories all over the world from many different cultures, suggesting that there really was a gigantic flood in the distant past that destroyed the world that was. Almost seventy percent of fossils are found in rock formed by the action of water (the majority of the other fossils are found in igneous rock - volcanic) - a cataclysmic event. Fossil seashells have been found on the tops of mountains.

The details vary widely however. But when the stories are scrutinized, the Bible's account holds up much better than others. For example, the shape of the boat according to scripture, had nearly the same dimensions of today's barges - not built for speed or comfort, but built to withstand heavy waves/turbulence without tipping over.

A Mesopotamian account recently discovered/interpreted says the survivors escaped in a round craft made of cheap material - hardly believable.

Other flood accounts have the survivors escaping in some small raft, or something else that would not have been able to withstand such a disaster.

Interestingly, one of the oldest accounts other than the Bible's about the flood comes from China, the main character being someone named "Nuuh"

Before someone posts that Moses copied a story from, for example, the story of Gilgamesh, there's no evidence of that, in fact it's most likely that most others copied from Moses as he had access to the Library of Alexandria, as he was considered Egyptian royalty and was highly educated for his time. The Bible account is the most believable because of details such as the shape/size of the boat. Note: according to the Bible, Ham, one of the sons of Noah, founded Egypt. Moses could have copied the original account from one of the sons of Noah, a survivor of the flood.
So-called experts suggesting that Moses got his story from copying from the Gilgamesh epic have an agenda.

And interestingly, the reason for the destruction of the earth was because violence filled the earth, people had forgotten God, and had given themselves over to unnatural desires. Marriage had become a joke (marrying and giving in marriage). Sounds almost like today. From Peter: In the last days scoffers will say "where is the promise of his coming, for since the foundation of the world things continue as they have." Peter answers, that is how it was just before the flood.

The above example is just one of many showing the Bible to be superior, not only in its historical accuracy, but in its message.


Assuming these are all true (which I am not contesting at this time), these are all included in the Old Testament, not the New Testament. The validity of these occurences does not prove anything about Jesus Christ and Christianty. Many Jews believe that everything you listed was indeed true, but do not recognize Jesus as the Messiah.

[cbus4life]

How exactly is the bible superior in it's "message" based on what you posted?

Extreme arrogance, if you ask me.

And, i would venture to say that none of the flood stories are actually "believable," regardless of where they come from, if you use common sense.

Most mainstream geologists, historians, biologists, etc. have rejected the proponents of "flood geology" in regards to the story of Noah, and call it no better than pseudoscience. It has been quite some time since even biblical archaeologists argued in favor of "flood geology" in support of the story of Noah.

[O-Trap]

If you want to follow Buddha, have a nice day. If one wants to believe in Boddhisatvas go ahead.

Christ was not 'just' a prophet. He was God in that he was who spoke all of creation into existence, not a 'god'. (John 1:1)

Christ also died 'once for all' - no need to continue to help others achieve that state by their own effort. Simple belief.

As to the post directly above this one - As the Apostle Paul states in the Bible, Christianity is 'a reasoned faith' - not a blind faith.


Would you be so kind as to look up Ephesians 4:15?

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b379/galejb/ColinFarrell.gif

[74Leps]

What does this have to do with Liberalism?

And, that is a pretty sweeping generalization, and not really based on anything substantial.

Hell, even the ACLU has defended the rights of Christians in the past.

Take a deep breath. I enjoy your posts, but this whole line you throw out all the time is getting old.


I didn't mention liberalism, but believe humanism based on evolution, which is untrue, has led to the moral decay of this country.

Humanism has been embedded in our public education systems - promoting evolution as fact. And in our universities for several generations now. Evolution is not based on science, it's based on a faith/religion.

Humanism relies on the 'goodness' of man, not any higher source, to be able to solve/overcome all problems. The problem is, that what is considered good is relative to nothing other than man's opinions - moral relativism. It's increasingly in our courts and politics. And moral relativism is a slippery slope.


Precisely. Moral relativism at the heart of liberalism. The problem is those who subscribe and blindly cling to it cannot see that secular humanism is indeed a faith (religion) in and of itself. It's worship of self which, as you mention, has been in the human experience since God made us free-agents.




How exactly is the bible superior in it's "message" based on what you posted?

Extreme arrogance, if you ask me.

And, i would venture to say that none of the flood stories are actually "believable," regardless of where they come from, if you use common sense.

Most mainstream geologists, historians, biologists, etc. have rejected the proponents of "flood geology" in regards to the story of Noah, and call it no better than pseudoscience. It has been quite some time since even biblical archaeologists argued in favor of "flood geology" in support of the story of Noah.


I gave one example, there are many showing the Bible historical accuracy much better than any other ancient documents; People who were eyewitnesses wrote about Christ, his life, what he did and his resurrection.

Most mainstream geologists, biologists, etc. are biased and use circular reasoning for their claims (dating rocks by fossils and fossils by rocks for example).

Do you know how a fossil is formed? Rapid burial and compaction. A fish that dies on the beach doesn't become a fossil over millions of years. It is weathered away by wind, sand, bacteria and scavengers eat at it etc. It must be buried suddenly to be preserved.


You sound quite arrogant yourself - AND AGAIN, this thread is for Christian huddlers, not trolls.
But if you'd like to do some reading showing ALL of evolution is false, that Creationism is better science than evolution in every area of science, start here -

http://creation.com/polish-tetrapod-footprints-trample-tiktaalik

a 'neat' story about evolutionary intermediaries hailed as proof of evolution just got shot down

BY THE WAY, no one can show me a single legitimate, passed peer review example of 'evolution' - (defining evolution as evolution that brings about molecules to man) there's not a single example of empirical science, none, in the real world, only in the fantasies of those who believe in evolution.

[74Leps]

Remember this, troll?

Christian (Believers) Huddlers...
Before I start this thread, I ask that those of you who are not believers, and couldn't care less about this topic please:
-Refrain from turning this into a religious debate.
-Refrain from insulting the beliefs mentioned here.
-Refrain from insulting huddlers for their beliefs.
-Refrain from "thread-shitting."
-If you choose to do any of the following, it just goes to show your childishness.

[74Leps]

To BigAppleBuckeye -

A book by a former atheist, Josh McDowell called Evidence That Demands a Verdict, is a start, to read about the life of Christ - that he was who he said he was, eyewitness accounts, etc.

[ernest_t_bass]

Remember this, troll?

Christian (Believers) Huddlers...
Before I start this thread, I ask that those of you who are not believers, and couldn't care less about this topic please:
-Refrain from turning this into a religious debate.
-Refrain from insulting the beliefs mentioned here.
-Refrain from insulting huddlers for their beliefs.
-Refrain from "thread-shitting."
-If you choose to do any of the following, it just goes to show your childishness.


74Leps... I am the OP, and I too forgot about this. Thanks for bringing it back up.

Now, can BOTH of you stop, and return to the quoted text here? Please.

Notice... I said BOTH!

[Captain Cavalier]

As Christians, we must remember to talk with respect, even if provoked. We shouldn't return comments with a sting of arrogance, conceit or sarcasm, otherwise we may lose credibility. If we are to atract and spread His gospel, it tends to work better if delivered respectfully...especially when it faces opposition. Humility, it helps keep the tensions down.

[Captain Cavalier]

Too many of my questions were answered with "because God made it that way" or "because we have faith" or "his thoughts are higher than our thoughts."

Now, I'm not opposed to any one of these being true, but when it's ALL you hear, and no rational possibility can even be posed, it gets tiring and disenfranchising very quickly.

It's understandable why one could get "frustrated"


It hit me one day, though, that I'd never really given Christianity its best shot ... that is to say, I'd never heard the best it had to offer.

It was over a long period of time. It's not a story where I had some grand emotional experience and "came to a belief" in God. It was over time.

While some may have that "Mountain Top" experience, I believe most come by it the way you did. Being a Catholic/Christian, I'm always trying to keep Christ in focus. "Seek and you will find" It's more than just an hour a week in church. Each day we should try to set aside some time to be quiet and speak to Him and/or listen for Him. If persistent, and with an open heart, one will get better at understanding. With this fast paced world, though I try, I don't always succeed. Yet I know my Savior lives and is always waiting for me...even with my faults.


Questioning is never a bad thing. Those Christians who treat questioning as a bad thing do not have enough faith in their beliefs, because they are afraid that their beliefs cannot satisfy the questions asked. A strong faith can withstand probing questions and is made stronger by them.


Good points. That supports the reason Christians should always be "seeking" God. Read scripture. Meditate on it. Pray for understanding. And be patient. There have been times when just out of the blue I happened to understand a scripture passage. I mean it was years that I wasn't quite sure what it meant. Persistence and patience.

[cbus4life]

I still want to know how the Bible's message is "superior" to others, as 74leps claimed.

And, P.S., i am sick of the comment that, whenever someone brings up a point made by scientists, historians, etc., disputing the historical accuracy of the bible, that they are immediately labeled as "biased" and not worthy of consideration.

Not everyone in academis are atheists.

[ernest_t_bass]

Looks like this is now a debate thread. Seems inevitable with religion and politics.

[74Leps]

cbus4life, or anyone else interested:

Someone wanting to confirm/be able to defend Christianity should have a book of apologetics on hand: A good basic book to have would be The Popular Encyclopedia of Apologetics, (Surveying the Evidence for the Truth of Christianity) available at Berean Book stores. A wealth of information about what the Bible teaches, critical issues, scientific and historical controversies, ethical matters, Christian response to major world religions and cults, major worldviews and secular philosophies.

Why Christianity is different from all other world religions and non-Christian sects -

Excerpt:

"World religions and non-Christian sects focus on how individuals can EARN God's love by trying to be good enough, moral enough, or sacrificial enough.

Jesus' way of salvation is God-centered, and the way of salvation in world religions and non-Christian sects is man-centered. Jesus' way of salvation is about what God has done to save humanity. World religions and non-Christian sects' way of salvation is about what humanity can do to save itself."

One could also find out in the above book that Buddha, for example, made no claim to himself being divinity, and most likely would be offended by someone claiming he was. Buddhism is more a philosophy than a religion. Buddha believed in a 'lifeforce' or energy, but not a Creator God.

As to a previous post about the Jews and the Old Testament - Jesus was a Jew, He and his disciples all believed the Old Testament was true, including the Creation account and the Great Flood.

There's an online link to some basics in the link below concerning the historical accuracy of the Bible, 'outside' references to Christ and Christians from the 1st century AD, etc., skim down through the index to find it. (scroll down to 1997)

http://www.rae.org/index.html

One might believe I'm biased or arrogant in thinking Christianity is 'superior'. But I can back that up with a wealth of information sources such as listed above (and many more from the world of science). Whether one agrees with me or not is up to them. But this thread was meant for Christian huddlers, so I believe I am entirely in-line. I certainly wasn't looking for a fight, but am prepared to defend, as all Christians should be. Again, as the apostle Paul stated, Christianity is a 'reasoned' faith, not some blind faith. There's a wealth of evidence if one will only take the time to look into it seriously. That means not just going to church, but doing some research. Know what you believe, why you believe it and be able to defend it.

[O-Trap]

cbus4life, or anyone else interested:

Someone wanting to confirm/be able to defend Christianity should have a book of apologetics on hand: A good basic book to have would be The Popular Encyclopedia of Apologetics, (Surveying the Evidence for the Truth of Christianity) available at Berean Book stores. A wealth of information about what the Bible teaches, critical issues, scientific and historical controversies, ethical matters, Christian response to major world religions and cults, major worldviews and secular philosophies.

Why Christianity is different from all other world religions and non-Christian sects -

Excerpt:

"World religions and non-Christian sects focus on how individuals can EARN God's love by trying to be good enough, moral enough, or sacrificial enough.

Jesus' way of salvation is God-centered, and the way of salvation in world religions and non-Christian sects is man-centered. Jesus' way of salvation is about what God has done to save humanity. World religions and non-Christian sects' way of salvation is about what humanity can do to save itself."

One could also find out in the above book that Buddha, for example, made no claim to himself being divinity, and most likely would be offended by someone claiming he was. Buddhism is more a philosophy than a religion. Buddha believed in a 'lifeforce' or energy, but not a Creator God.

As to a previous post about the Jews and the Old Testament - Jesus was a Jew, He and his disciples all believed the Old Testament was true, including the Creation account and the Great Flood.

There's an online link to some basics in the link below concerning the historical accuracy of the Bible, 'outside' references to Christ and Christians from the 1st century AD, etc., skim down through the index to find it. (scroll down to 1997)

http://www.rae.org/index.html

One might believe I'm biased or arrogant in thinking Christianity is 'superior'. But I can back that up with a wealth of information sources such as listed above (and many more from the world of science). Whether one agrees with me or not is up to them. But this thread was meant for Christian huddlers, so I believe I am entirely in-line. I certainly wasn't looking for a fight, but am prepared to defend, as all Christians should be. Again, as the apostle Paul stated, Christianity is a 'reasoned' faith, not some blind faith. There's a wealth of evidence if one will only take the time to look into it seriously. That means not just going to church, but doing some research. Know what you believe, why you believe it and be able to defend it.


While I admire your zeal, I find an inherent problem with using "apologetics." Most would use apologetics as a way to defend what they already believe. However, if a person has come to a "reasoned faith" through the use of reason, they already have a legitimate defense for their belief. Too many use "apologetics" books in such a way that they can just believe first, and then they can look for a reason why they should believe.

I'd say if they've not heard such reason before their belief, they should not yet believe. I know how scary that sounds to say, but I think it's true.

It seems that so many Christians today have a proper sense of urgency about the eternal state of others (what that actually looks like is a separate discussion), but they go about it in the wrong way, I think. I think they approach it from a "hurry-up-and-get-em-'saved'" mentality. What I think this produces is what Jesus' parable of the sower refers to as the seeds which sprout quickly, but have no root system, and so they die quickly as well.

I don't think this produces a strong faith, and I find that to be a problem. Does it take LONGER to nurture a strong faith? Yes, and so maybe you can't get as many people to pray the prayer in that same amount of time, but those who you CAN disciple and nurture will be much stronger in their faith.

Remember, we do not act as a peddler with the gospel ... that is to say we do not treat it like we would if we were a salesperson trying to sell a product.

A salesperson (I'll speak from my own experience, as most all my professional career has been in sales and/or marketing) tries to sell something to as many people as possible, regardless of whether or not they'll ever use it. Even a good salesperson will sell something to someone who WANTS it, even if they may not ever USE it. Even others will convince them that they NEED it, but if the salesperson doesn't take the time to show the customer WHY they need it and HOW to use it, then what good is the product to the customer? Still others who might be less than savory and use bait-and-switch tactics ... something I've unfortunately also seen Christians do.

Ultimately, when we consider a life dedicated to serving God, we are told to COUNT THE COST. We are told to evaluate what that means to truly do so. Why, then, would we ever try to tell others they needed to be saved and try to persuade them to make a decision then and there? They still need to know the 'why', the 'how', and the 'then what'.

So, ultimately, while I think apologetics is well-intentioned, I think it should be unnecessary. If we have built our faith on a firm, steady foundation ... one that is reasonable ... then we already have our defense. We need only to show it to others.

Sorry about the soapbox. However, that's always been a nerve of mine.

Also, regarding the belief in the Old Testament by Jews during the Second Temple period in Coele-Syria ... you are absolutely right that they would have believed every "yud" and "vav" of the Old Testament. However, probably not in the terms that many do today. The Jews as a people were not a people that communicated in the same way a news reporter would (ie "just the facts, ma'am"). They were much more pictorial and creative with their communication. Honestly, the imagery used in Hebrew writing puts even some of the most creative English writers to shame.

A quick study through the Pseudepigrapha and Apocrypha will show that, as well as many other extra-canonical writings.

In fact, I would argue that the understanding that the Jews had about what afterlife looks like has largely to do with the fact that they also believed very strongly in these works as well (the Additions to Daniel, Additions to Esther, Tobit, the Enochs, the Maccabbees, the Esdras, Baruch, Judith, Susanna, the Wisdom of Solomon, etc.).

I wrote my university honors paper on the subject of the shaping of Jewish afterlife theology during the Intertestamental Period (roughly 604 BCE to 3 CE), and specifically the shaping within the locale of Coele-Syria (modern-day Palestine/Israel area), as there were areas like Elephantine and the like which seemed to be shaped a tad differently.

If you're interested in reading it, PM me, and I'll give you the link. It's a tad heady (as most such papers are), but I got it published in the Journals of the Evangelical Theological Society back several years ago, so it can't have been unreadable. :D

Let me know.

[Captain Cavalier]

If we have built our faith on a firm, steady foundation ... one that is reasonable ... then we already have our defense. We need only to show it to others.

I tend to like this approach and, IMO, may work best. Generally, people don't like being hit over the head with a Bible, having their faults pointed out or told you have to do this and this and this etc, etc. "Practice what you believe and you will attract people. "Hmmm, that guy always seems to be happy, even through bad times. He always willing to help. What's his secret? How's he do it?"

[74Leps]

Over the years I have had people ask me why my family stayed generally happy and got along so well. I'd tell them it had to do with our faith in God, and they'd say "That can't be it" and then want to change the subject.

I have also seen that all the discussion in the world would not change the mind of an non-believer. Then one day a friend of mine was observing a group of Christians working together on a project. He could FEEL the good spirit around everyone, and it changed him when nothing else would.

O-Trap - I do a lot of reading on the internet, a valuable source of information (if the government doesn't take that away) for research. I read a lot about the debates between science and religion (really about religion vs religion, but that's for another time).

Apologetics are a nice source to have handy for reference, because of the variety of subjects that come up. Christians are under attack from every angle.

People have different levels of faith, and some, as Paul would say, the faith of a baby, and are easily swayed. They can't stand more than milk, so never progress.

"A quick study through the Pseudepigrapha and Apocrypha will show that, as well as many other extra-canonical writings."

Yet another subject for another time. There's good reason why they were 'extra-canonical'

[O-Trap]

O-Trap - I do a lot of reading on the internet, a valuable source of information (if the government doesn't take that away) for research. I read a lot about the debates between science and religion (really about religion vs religion, but that's for another time).

Rest assured, I've been heavily involved in that argument for many years, and have participated on both sides.

Inasmuch as you do read quite a bit online, maybe the thesis wouldn't be too long for you (most people's attention span gets decidedly shorter on the web ;)).

http://www.secondtemplesemiticafterlifetheology.info/

Enjoy.



Apologetics are a nice source to have handy for reference, because of the variety of subjects that come up. Christians are under attack from every angle.

Rest assured that I'm aware of this. I suppose I don't mind apologetics in and of themselves ... more how they are used. I come across far too many people clinging to such things as a means of legitimizing what they already profess.

I'd suggest that those things found in "apologetics" texts are the horse, and our belief is the cart. Too often, I see the cart coming before the horse.



People have different levels of faith, and some, as Paul would say, the faith of a baby, and are easily swayed. They can't stand more than milk, so never progress.

I believe you're referring to the Hebrews 5 passage (one of my favorites). Paul most likely didn't write Hebrews. ;)

The point of that passage, however, was that those who are infantile in their faith out to pursue a "solid foods" faith. The Hebrew church (to which the book is written, of course) had been displaying a lack of that (see vv. 11-14). The writer was using this passage to CHASTISE his audience, as well he should have been.



Yet another subject for another time. There's good reason why they were 'extra-canonical'


Oh, of course. I was merely making the point that Hebrews neither wrote nor read the same way we do. Different language, culture, time, and even hemisphere create enough obstacles for us to tackle, such that we ought to approach interpreting Scripture with humility, shedding as much of our cultural predispositions as possible.

A great book on this, which I have and which you are permitted to borrow if you live near Akron, is called "Grasping God's Word." It is by a man named Duvall, I think (the book us upstairs, and I don't feel like going to double-check). Excellent read on the barriers we face in interpretation.

The extra-canonical books DO allot us the ability to study the textual nuances of Semitic writings from that time and area, and while we likely agree that they are not inspired, they DO present a better peep-hole view for us to better grasp the cultural context in which the Scriptures ought to be understood.

Remember, though the Bible is as applicable to us as anyone, its initial audience and writers were not 20th-century, Western-thinking, English-speaking, individualistic, nationally-free, independent Americans. They were first-century, Eastern-thinking, Aramaic- or Greek-speaking, community-minded, captive, oppressed Arabs.

Think about the Arabs of TODAY, and how many obstacles we face in understanding their culture. Now, add the timeline difference, the lack of globalization, and the captivity which existed then.

Not all Americans fail to grasp this, but enough do to make it concerning. We need to handle God's Word reverently ... coming to it fully ready to admit that we definitely won't understand everything in it. Too many talking heads on television or radio or even in books don't seem to have the humility to admit this around those who would listen to them, and I think this is hurting the church.

God's Word is powerful and dumbfounding at times. Handle with care.

[ricola]

have enjoyed this thread as much as any on 'either" huddle. thanks for all the contributors and to ernest for starting it. Tho not catholic, i find myself aligning quite closely to many of captain cavalier's thoughts and expressions, but it's apparent nearly all the "christian" posts here have great insight and that for all of us our time here on earth is a brief journey in eternity that can be at times frustrating and trying, but alway joyful because of the knowledge we have of salvation. It's sad to see so much of the darkness around us, both here and in our everyday lives.

[74Leps]

. . . God's Word is powerful and dumbfounding at times. Handle with care.
[/quote]

Have bookmarked your page; will read sometime when my eyes are fresh and thanks for sharing.

Ephesians 6:12

[ernest_t_bass]

Question...
Are there "what-ifs" with God? What do you think? Here is why I ask. God is supposed to know the beginning, middle, end. There is the age old free will vs. pre-destination debate, and this may fall into that.

Are there "what-ifs?" Is there such a thing as "the power of prayer?" If prayer actually "works" then the end was not pre-determined. Does God say, "If you pray, the outcome will change." Option A, option B. That doesn't sound right. If everything is pre-determined, then prayer is to make us feel better, right? "I pray that my father won't die." If he doesn't die right away, then "prayer worked." If he passes in the middle of the night, then "prayer didn't work" or "God chose not to answer."

I believe that it is pre-determined. I think that prayer is good b/c it allows us to "speak" with God, but I'm not too sure if I believe that prayer actually "does" anything, b/c everything is predetermined.

[Captain Cavalier]

God is all knowing and therefore knows your eventual outcome. He also knows your effort in doing His will. I don't believe that just because He knew your fate that He decided your fate. God knew Judas would betray Him and he knew Peter would deny Him, yet both also had the opportunity to repent. Peter repented, Judas did not. God knew what was going to happen yet both made their own decisions. I believe that if Judas repented, God would've granted forgiveness.

On God answering prayers, I like what some friends of mine had told me:
1) Yes
2) Not yet
3) I have something else in mind.

For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways," declares the LORD.
Isaiah 55:8

This might seem minor compared to more serious sufferings but it may help to get a my point across. When I was younger my girlfriend broke up with me. I prayed for us to get back together. It didn't happen. Now I'm happily married with children and when I look back at how the relationship was, I believe that if I had gotten married back then it would've ended in a divorce. I actually lived Garth Brooks' song "Unanswered Prayers"

I know it's hard to understand sometimes. When you offer prayers and do what you believe God wants but you don't get the answer you were expecting. Yet others who seem to neglect God all together, receive the "bounty".

[ernest_t_bass]

Yes, I've heard all that before. But what I don't get. Throw out that prayer you made. Would your outcome not be the same? I'm not saying that God didn't hear your prayer, but would it not be the same.

"God, please let us get back together."
1) OK, Yes - Because it was in His plan
2) No - Because it was not in His plan

Is there a "what if?" Does God know the end? If so, then prayer "requests" are just talking, and just saying "hey, I'm here."

[bigmanbt]

Some "free will" we have if God is all knowing and therefore knows your eventual outcomes. Can't have it both ways, either you are allowed to make your own choices or not. If he knows what choice you are going to take, what choice do you really have?

[DeyDurkie5]

Question...
Are there "what-ifs" with God? What do you think? Here is why I ask. God is supposed to know the beginning, middle, end. There is the age old free will vs. pre-destination debate, and this may fall into that.

Are there "what-ifs?" Is there such a thing as "the power of prayer?" If prayer actually "works" then the end was not pre-determined. Does God say, "If you pray, the outcome will change." Option A, option B. That doesn't sound right. If everything is pre-determined, then prayer is to make us feel better, right? "I pray that my father won't die." If he doesn't die right away, then "prayer worked." If he passes in the middle of the night, then "prayer didn't work" or "God chose not to answer."

I believe that it is pre-determined. I think that prayer is good b/c it allows us to "speak" with God, but I'm not too sure if I believe that prayer actually "does" anything, b/c everything is predetermined.


You just answered your own question...Prayer is just a way to feel good about something and help calm your nerves. It has no bearing on what the outcome of a thing will be. Just like people who say god has a plan and knows everything. Some guy who is dead knows what is going to happen in the future? lol give me a break no one knows what is going to happen in life because it is unwritten.

If someone has cancer, and you get a group of people to prayer for his recovery and he survives, it has nothing to do with the prayer. It's the doctors and chemo that saved his life. Prayer is a scham just as is god's plan and all that bullshit

[HitsRus]

Some "free will" we have if God is all knowing and therefore knows your eventual outcomes. Can't have it both ways, either you are allowed to make your own choices or not. If he knows what choice you are going to take, what choice do you really have?


forgive me bigmanbt as I have already posted this on the other thread, but directly deals with causality and free will.

http://www.enlightennext.org/magazine/j11/goswami.asp?page=2

It would seem the 'godless' view would be one of predetermination as causality would be nothing more than interaction of elementary particles which can only result in a predictable outcome based on scientific laws. Consciousness and spirituality transcend physical matter...and hence 'downward causality'..free will is a property of spiritualism which effects our physical universe.

[ernest_t_bass]

You just answered your own question...Prayer is just a way to feel good about something and help calm your nerves. It has no bearing on what the outcome of a thing will be. Just like people who say god has a plan and knows everything. Some guy who is dead knows what is going to happen in the future? lol give me a break no one knows what is going to happen in life because it is unwritten.

If someone has cancer, and you get a group of people to prayer for his recovery and he survives, it has nothing to do with the prayer. It's the doctors and chemo that saved his life. Prayer is a scham just as is god's plan and all that bullshit


I do appreciate your input, and you can scorn me for saying this, but please read my first post (#1). I ask that this thread not be a debate but for other believers to share their thoughts. I understand wholeheartedly that there are many people in this world that do not believe in God, and I respect that fully. I just ask, politely, that this thread not be a place for that particular discussion, if you would be so kind.

[BRF]

I believe that when people join together to "pray", something really can happen. It's like minds joining together and an insight into the "after-life". Just sayin'! ;-)

[ernest_t_bass]

I believe that when people join together to "pray", something really can happen. It's like minds joining together and an insight into the "after-life". Just sayin'! ;-)


OK, so are you saying that things aren't pre-determined and God does not know the ending? Or are you saying that God changes his mind, based on whether or not people pray?

[BRF]

Yes

[HitsRus]

Not to put words in BRF's mouth, but of course he's saying that things are not predetermined as he believes that outcomes can be changed by praying. Of course God knows all possible outcomes. The problem comprehending that, is that you are assigning finite characteristics to the infinite.

[HitsRus]

Yes


:)

[DeyDurkie5]

You just answered your own question...Prayer is just a way to feel good about something and help calm your nerves. It has no bearing on what the outcome of a thing will be. Just like people who say god has a plan and knows everything. Some guy who is dead knows what is going to happen in the future? lol give me a break no one knows what is going to happen in life because it is unwritten.

If someone has cancer, and you get a group of people to prayer for his recovery and he survives, it has nothing to do with the prayer. It's the doctors and chemo that saved his life. Prayer is a scham just as is god's plan and all that bullshit


I do appreciate your input, and you can scorn me for saying this, but please read my first post (#1). I ask that this thread not be a debate but for other believers to share their thoughts. I understand wholeheartedly that there are many people in this world that do not believe in God, and I respect that fully. I just ask, politely, that this thread not be a place for that particular discussion, if you would be so kind.


I'm not trying to turn it into a debate, if you are questioning why something is happening then shouldn't that be a indication that maybe it's flawed? I mean I pretty much responded to your post about why you are having second thoughts about the power of prayer. I used to believe in god and all that, and was raised christian, but I guess I just came to realize that things like prayer, and the power of god really just doesn't make any concrete sense.
All I was saying, was that if you are having these thoughts that prayer doesn't work and it's causing you to question it, then maybe you are beginning to realize certain things pertaining to your religion/beliefs. I'm not trying to turn this into a debate, was just merely giving a second opinion to the quoted post.

[jmog]

I say that not everything is pre-determined, but God does know everything in that he knows what YOU will choose and what you will do ahead of time.

Him knowing what will happen doesn't mean he pre-determined that it would happen.

[jmog]

Also, I would agree with an above statment, trying to understand how things are not pre-determined but yet God knows what will eventually happen is nearly impossible for our finite thinking brain.

Its like trying to understand how God has always been and always will be.

Its like trying to understand how God is omnipresent (can be anywhere).

I'll also throw this one out there, its like trying to understand how God can be not only at any place (omnipresent) but can also be in any TIME. God can be looking at you as a baby and on your dying bed, he time has no meaning and has no boundaries on him. That's how he knows what is already going to happen, he's already seen it happen. Try to wrap your brain around that.

[HitsRus]

I'm reposting what I said from the other thread....

It is quite possible to be both religious and scientific. The friction that arises between the two are due to our inability as finite beings to conceptualize the infinite. We visualize him as a 'being' making decisions and micro managing his universe as a man might build and play with a toy....a 'spirit in the sky'.
When you throw that concept out, and quit trying to pin human/animal characteristics to "Him", it becomes easy to accept both spirituality AND science.

If you can visualize god not as a bordered entity but diffuse....as everywhere, permeating everything, at all times and forever. An enormous purpose of will and direction that surrounds us, envelopes us....and everything in the universe. If you can do that then you will see how the religions of the world tie in....the concept of 'oneness with that purpose' that in some form or other(heaven in the Christian tradition).


Religion does not define God....it is a way for our spiritual nature to find him.

[ernest_t_bass]

ttt

[SnotBubbles]

Still struggling with this Ernest?

Here is what I've come to decide. I too was raised Christian and I too have many questions. I too have strayed away from faith. However, I too don't want to spend an afterlife eternally damned.

I have opened myself up to God. When I do pray (which is rare anymore), the only thing I pray for anymore is the Holy Spirit to fill me. I pray that my Shepherd gets me out of the ruts, and back on the path of righteousness. It's frustrating. I want it, I yearn for it...but I still get no answers. I don't see a "light" guiding me back. I don't feel anything. But I want it.....

So, it makes me question it even more. When I say, "here I am...take me! I want you." And I hear crickets....I actually become angry. But I keep trying it.

If there is a God, and it is His will for me to spend eternity with him...I will gladly and benevolently accept that gift. Until then...I can only pray for his guidance and presence in my day to day actions/life. I just hope I don't drop dead before I get a response....because if that happens and I don't get a response, I will be scared shitless as my mind fades away.....

[CenterBHSFan]

I have opened myself up to God. When I do pray (which is rare anymore), the only thing I pray for anymore is the Holy Spirit to fill me. I pray that my Shepherd gets me out of the ruts, and back on the path of righteousness. It's frustrating. I want it, I yearn for it...but I still get no answers. I don't see a "light" guiding me back. I don't feel anything. But I want it.....

So, it makes me question it even more. When I say, "here I am...take me! I want you." And I hear crickets....I actually become angry. But I keep trying it.

If there is a God, and it is His will for me to spend eternity with him...I will gladly and benevolently accept that gift. Until then...I can only pray for his guidance and presence in my day to day actions/life. I just hope I don't drop dead before I get a response....because if that happens and I don't get a response, I will be scared shitless as my mind fades away.....

I know I'm probably not posting this in the appropriate eloquent manner, Snot, but here goes. And sorry if I seem ridiculous, but there's a reason for it, as you'll see.

Are you working for it? What part of the communion with God are you holding up? Do you want something simply because you exist? What do you think that you have to do, if anything, to "feel" something? Are you looking for indicators? Why should God work on demand?
.................................................. ....

Now, I ask those abrupt questions because I actually think the same thoughts sometimes.
But then I look around at my existense and think to myself that perhaps God IS holding up his bargain:
I woke up today.
I realize that I'm not privy to God's time.
I know that because I don't completely know everything in God's mind, I don't try. I just try to work with what little I do know.
The old cliche "count your many blessings" is rejuvenating.
Sometimes blessings aren't obvious.
Sometimes miracles aren't obvious.
I can't always control what others think say or do, but I can control what I think say or do - even when I think I can't.

I often wonder what I've done to even be deserving of God's notice and why I should just expect things to happen. After all, sometimes I just don't want to put forth the effort.
I believe that this is where our part of the "bargain" lies. It's not easy, it's not routine and it's not always instantly gratifying. In fact, it's extremely rare when taken at face value. The exchange isn't always tangible. It's hard to absorb what is going on when our everyday lives are so related to our senses.
It is also my belief that the love of God is a love that we don't quite understand. We love our parents, significant others, friends, pets, food, art, etc. That's because we can see, feel, smell, hear and taste the obvious. But, the feeling and the loving of God is abstract, for lack of a better word. We as humans are so used to instant gratification, that when we don't immediately see, touch, hear, taste, or smell results, we naturally think we're observing a natural vacuum. Love is abstract enough, but when we sense an absence, it's even harder to try and wrap our minds around it. We've somehow been conditioned to expect reliable and obvious "feelings" concerning relationships to God.
I wonder who started this notion that we should feel awashed with this rapturous love and that that was the only idicator that we're loved by God. I think it's a false notion, even when others will disagree with me.
For example: I love my Mother dearly. But I don't always have that awesome feeling of love coursing through my body and mind just because she's there. It's just there and taken for granted. So, of course it will not be so easy when considering something that isn't easy to see/experience like my mother.

So, to some extent, I don't expect an understanding, feeling, or any sort of event. If it happens, great - if it don't, well tomorrow is another day. I think finding our acceptance level is our job to be constantly looked for, modified and contemplated. Perhaps that is why patience is a virtue? I don't know.

[ernest_t_bass]

Snot, here's my take on what you've said. I'll use a Cubs analogy, since I know you're a Cubs fan.

First off, I agree 100% with what Center has said. I've made that same prayer you have, but I know that I have not done my part. I've asked God to open my heart, but I am not too sure I've leant him my heart. When I was in college, I had a roommate that was a die hard, Chicago born, Cubs fan. I started liking the Cubs because of his passion. I wasn't a fan, but I rooted for them. I wasn't a true fan because I didn't invest myself into what being a Cubs fan is. If I wanted to feel the love of the Cubs nation, I'd have to invest that love. It was never true. I could try and try to become a Cubs fan, but (as you are a true Cubs fan, you know) it's not just about rooting for that team, and wanting them to win. It's about history. It's about tradition. It's about LIVING the life of a Cubs fan, win/lose/draw. I didn't have that.

Stupid analogy, but onto religion. I've prayed that prayer. But, I know that it won't work, b/c I'm not willing (in my heart) to do what it takes. If I want to feel the Spirit, then I know that I have to invest what I want in return. I need to read the Bible. I need to surround myself with believers. I need to go to Church. I need to honor Christ and be a Christlike example in the way I live. I need to live the life of a believer. I can't expect to go "half-arsed" and expect to reap the same benefits as true followers.

Back to the Cubs, and to tie it together. I can root for the Cubs, but if they win it all, I don't truly reap the benefits. I won't shed a tear, like I know you would, and my old roommate would, and your father would. You would cry like little babies b/c it actually means something to you. Because you've invested time into it. My roommate cried when Bartman screwed the Cubs. I laughed. Because it didn't mean anything.

I'm too stubborn to go after it, and I'm ashamed to say that...

[I Wear Pants]

For about the past year I've been getting much further from god. To the point where I hope he doesn't exist because if he does I want nothing to do with him.

[fan_from_texas]

Back on topic--

The toughest part of day-to-day life for me is being consistent in what I do. It's difficult to make time for things of faith when I'm racing around from one thing to another in life. Setting aside time for the important--rather than settling for the tyranny of the urgent--is perhaps my biggest struggle.

Re "repenting mass murderer" question: the question reveals a fundamental (but understandable) confusion about the path to the Divine. The basic idea is that we're all sinners, we've all done something wrong. Even though there are huge variations in the degree of our fallen-ness, this doesn't change the main problem: a God who is perfect and holy can't accept someone who is not unless there is atonement for that wrongdoing. That is, whether you lied once, or murdered a million, you're still not perfect--and that's the only question--perfect, or not perfect? If "not perfect," then you need to atone for that wrongdoing. It's not a question of doing enough good things to outweigh the bad--there isn't some sort of scale out there to determine who gets in. Is that any clearer?

[fan_from_texas]

I'm reposting what I said from the other thread....

It is quite possible to be both religious and scientific. The friction that arises between the two are due to our inability as finite beings to conceptualize the infinite. We visualize him as a 'being' making decisions and micro managing his universe as a man might build and play with a toy....a 'spirit in the sky'.
When you throw that concept out, and quit trying to pin human/animal characteristics to "Him", it becomes easy to accept both spirituality AND science.

If you can visualize god not as a bordered entity but diffuse....as everywhere, permeating everything, at all times and forever. An enormous purpose of will and direction that surrounds us, envelopes us....and everything in the universe. If you can do that then you will see how the religions of the world tie in....the concept of 'oneness with that purpose' that in some form or other(heaven in the Christian tradition).


Religion does not define God....it is a way for our spiritual nature to find him.

I think I agree with this. I don't understand the idea that smart people can't be religious, etc. There are plenty of smart, well-educated, upper-class, scientific people who are ardent believers.

I generally respect the beliefs of most people, but what I don't understand are people who claim to be "spiritual", rather than religious. In my experience, this tends to mean something like "I like the good feelings I get from religion, and I like the sense of purpose that it gives me, but I don't really like all the requirements like avoiding lust, avoiding gluttony, being part of a community, being held accountable for my actions, feeling uncomfortable about disagreeing with people, and so on. I'd rather just cherry-pick the good things and leave out the tough stuff."

It seems like religion is an all-or-nothing deal. If you're not going to be all-in, then don't walk the fence--much better to enjoy whatever you want than to half-ass it.

[jmog]

Back on topic--

Re "repenting mass murderer" question: the question reveals a fundamental (but understandable) confusion about the path to the Divine. The basic idea is that we're all sinners, we've all done something wrong. Even though there are huge variations in the degree of our fallen-ness, this doesn't change the main problem: a God who is perfect and holy can't accept someone who is not unless there is atonement for that wrongdoing. That is, whether you lied once, or murdered a million, you're still not perfect--and that's the only question--perfect, or not perfect? If "not perfect," then you need to atone for that wrongdoing. It's not a question of doing enough good things to outweigh the bad--there isn't some sort of scale out there to determine who gets in. Is that any clearer?

I couldn't have put it any better myself FFT.

A couple things to remember...

1. In God's eyes all sins are "equal". Murder isn't any worse than lying. Severity of sin is a man made idea. Even looking at the consequences for sin in the Bible. The man made Jewish laws had varying degrees, but the spiritual consequences from God has never had varying degrees of severity.

2. Like you said, there is not a set of "balances" or "scales" in heaven that puts all the good things you did on one side and all the bad on the other. The only question is perfect or not perfect, and if the answer is not perfect, then you had better have something (Jesus' sacrafice) to atone (or make amends) for your imperfection.

[LoganAlumni99]

Before I start this thread, I ask that those of you who are not believers, and couldn't care less about this topic please:
-Refrain from turning this into a religious debate.
-Refrain from insulting the beliefs mentioned here.
-Refrain from insulting huddlers for their beliefs.
-Refrain from "thread-shitting."
-If you choose to do any of the following, it just goes to show your childishness.

Now that I have said that, I know that people will still do the above, but I had to mention it anyway.

To fellow believers, Christians, whatever. In your day-to-day (spiritual) life, what is the toughest part of living that life? What do you find that challenges your own personal beliefs most? What brings you the most "trouble" in your spiritual life?

For me, personally, it is "what if I'm wrong?" There are so many different "religions" out there, and each one preaches that they are the right one. Which one is right? What if I'm wrong?

I don't consider myself a religious person. I was raised non-denominational, but I'd consider myself a baptist.

What troubles you the most?

What troubles me the most? Women! It's a love/hate thing. As far as knowing which religion is right, that comes into focus pretty easily if you do your homework. There is only 1 religion that has history to back up what its founder said.

[SnotBubbles]

What troubles me the most? Women! It's a love/hate thing. As far as knowing which religion is right, that comes into focus pretty easily if you do your homework. There is only 1 religion that has history to back up what its founder said.

Scientology? Fucking Tom Cruise....

:D

[BoatShoes]

When I was a christian I struggled with reconciling the suffering of the world with the God I learned about. Eventually I lost my faith while serving as a missionary. I've often heard that when you do missionary work you either grow closer to God or you can lose faith entirely...the latter happened for me.

Re; "spiritual" as opposed to "religious."

I don't fall into this camp as I would consider myself neither, but what I think people mean when they say they're "spiritual" is perhaps that they believe in God, a Creator of the Universe, and perhaps even that this thing may care about humans on Earth....but that this God is nothing like as depicted by the World Religions; a philosopher's God, as I've heard it called. Hence, if you believed in God in this manner, I'm not so sure you'd feel morally obligated to refrain from such behaviors that tend to be deemed sinful. I imagine these folks to see God to be more akin to "the force" in Star Wars. JMHO.

[jmog]

When I was a christian I struggled with reconciling the suffering of the world with the God I learned about. Eventually I lost my faith while serving as a missionary. I've often heard that when you do missionary work you either grow closer to God or you can lose faith entirely...the latter happened for me.

Re; "spiritual" as opposed to "religious."

I don't fall into this camp as I would consider myself neither, but what I think people mean when they say they're "spiritual" is perhaps that they believe in God, a Creator of the Universe, and perhaps even that this thing may care about humans on Earth....but that this God is nothing like as depicted by the World Religions; a philosopher's God, as I've heard it called. Hence, if you believed in God in this manner, I'm not so sure you'd feel morally obligated to refrain from such behaviors that tend to be deemed sinful. I imagine these folks to see God to be more akin to "the force" in Star Wars. JMHO.

The one thing I will say, the Bible pretty well answers the question of a "loving God" and a decaying/suffering world. If you were a missionary I believe you know the reason. The suffering of the world is due to the sin of man (according to the Bible).

[BoatShoes]

The one thing I will say, the Bible pretty well answers the question of a "loving God" and a decaying/suffering world. If you were a missionary I believe you know the reason. The suffering of the world is due to the sin of man (according to the Bible).

Well, I suppose, even after seeking philosophical justifications for my christian beliefs, upon being up close and personal to what seemed to me to be incomprehensible suffering of children, I became like Ivan Fyodorovich Karamazov; and that answer didn't quite seem satisfying anymore and neither did any fideistic support; an emotional begrudging despair overcame any reason. It's not God that I don't accept...but I must respectfully return him my ticket.

[fan_from_texas]

Well, I suppose, even after seeking philosophical justifications for my christian beliefs, upon being up close and personal to what seemed to me to be incomprehensible suffering of children, I became like Ivan Fyodorovich Karamazov; and that answer didn't quite seem satisfying anymore and neither did any fideistic support; an emotional begrudging despair overcame any reason. It's not God that I don't accept...but I must respectfully return him my ticket.

There are, of course, very good philosophical justifications for Christianity, including several good ones advanced recently (I'm thinking Richard Swinburne, Keith Yandell, Alvin Plantinga). If you want a serious defense of the faith, I'd recommend several of Swinburne's books. They're academic (i.e. not written for the common guy on the street), but if you want something legitimate and in-depth, it's a good route to go.

[BoatShoes]

There are, of course, very good philosophical justifications for Christianity, including several good ones advanced recently (I'm thinking Richard Swinburne, Keith Yandell, Alvin Plantinga). If you want a serious defense of the faith, I'd recommend several of Swinburne's books. They're academic (i.e. not written for the common guy on the street), but if you want something legitimate and in-depth, it's a good route to go.

Thank you for the suggestions, I appreciate it. I am familiar with them and their arguments are quite interesting (particularly Swinburne's Principles of Credulity and Testimony but I think David Hume trumps him, JMHO). Prior to my current career I thought I was going to be a philosophy professor and wrote my master's thesis defending a Divine Command Theory of ethics as an answer to the logical problem of evil...I thought I would eventually turn it into my Ph.D but that changed and I never went through with it and thought I'd take arguing to the real world. I've heard all the theodicies, Plantinga's Free Will defense, Etc. Not looking to get into a debate about the cogency of these arguments. Thought I'd just say what I struggled with while an active Christian. But again, thank you for offering up suggestions as it is undoubtedly true that those and many others are great thinkers and offer powerful defenses for theism and the like. I actually met Prof. Yandell before; a very good man it seemed.

At the end of the day we could do all the syllogistic reasoning we can muster but I think Hume might have been right in that at the very end, our passions turn us to whatever it is we believe and I suppose, whatever the result, it appears to be true in my case. I'm not sure. I can remember evangelizing to atheists with arguments from those men and in my mind, it seemed like subjective experiences were far better at converting than modal logic on a napkin.Though I feel like the ontological argument might prove God's existence a priori, when I leave my philosophical inquiry, I must admit the neurological brain state of "Belief" that attaches to my physical body some how just isn't there. But, that's just me. I often describe it like how I felt about the Buckeyes playing USC 3 years back...I wanted the Bucks to win and hoped they'd win...but really, I just didn't believe they would.

Don't mean to hijack the thread, Ernest.

[believer]

^^^Boatshoes, You are one step away from being a Christian apologist! lol The cliche' "there's a fine line between love and hate" rings so true.

Back to topic, as my handle implies I am indeed a "believer" but that doesn't mean I do not struggle with spiritual issues on a daily basis.

I suppose the Scripture that best describes my daily view on life is 1 John 2:15-17: Don't love the world's ways. Don't love the world's goods. Love of the world squeezes out love for the Father. Practically everything that goes on in the world—wanting your own way, wanting everything for yourself, wanting to appear important—has nothing to do with the Father. It just isolates you from him. The world and all its wanting, wanting, wanting is on the way out—but whoever does what God wants is set for eternity. - The Message

Do I live up to this daily? Nope. I get wrapped up very easily on acquiring things and coveting what others have rather than coming to the stark but true understanding that "worldly things" are fleeting, temporary and easily turn to dust. But eternity, my friend, lasts forever.

[LoganAlumni99]

Scientology? Fucking Tom Cruise....

:D

I'm not offended at you making fun of my post, but could you leave my Cubies out of it? :)

[ernest_t_bass]

Been struggling with another issue... How many of you (believers) feel it's utterly important to attend church? I haven't been in about 2-3 months.

[jmog]

Been struggling with another issue... How many of you (believers) feel it's utterly important to attend church? I haven't been in about 2-3 months.

1. It has to be the "right" or good church. If you are going to a church that doesn't truly preach the Bible and only preaches the "God loves you and would bless you if you gave more money" type messages, you might as well not go.
2. I feel it is important for a Christian to receive good teaching on a regular basis. The Bible explains it like spiritual food. If you don't eat regular food you become weak and eventually die. If you don't get any spiritual "food" (teaching) then your faith/integrity/actions will slowly become weak and die.

[believer]

1. It has to be the "right" or good church. If you are going to a church that doesn't truly preach the Bible and only preaches the "God loves you and would bless you if you gave more money" type messages, you might as well not go.
2. I feel it is important for a Christian to receive good teaching on a regular basis. The Bible explains it like spiritual food. If you don't eat regular food you become weak and eventually die. If you don't get any spiritual "food" (teaching) then your faith/integrity/actions will slowly become weak and die.

I agree. I haven't been to church in quite a while I'm ashamed to say. I can tell I haven't because my anger is up, I'm short with people, I see nothing but the negatives in people, I use profanity more, etc., etc.

However, I do have a question for you. Why is it you are not in church right now?

[ernest_t_bass]

Why is it you are not in church right now?

Laziness, above all.

There are some other issues with the pastor/wife's family that has also caused my wife some resentment towards our church. My mother-in-law is attending another church b/c our pastor got sick for a while. She liked the new church, so she stayed. Pastor got healthy, she didn't return back to old church. Pastor was un-Christ-like towards here (rude, cold-shouldered), so that has turned my wife off. We need to either return to that church, or find another one.

[jmog]

I agree. I haven't been to church in quite a while I'm ashamed to say. I can tell I haven't because my anger is up, I'm short with people, I see nothing but the negatives in people, I use profanity more, etc., etc.

However, I do have a question for you. Why is it you are not in church right now?

Because I'm in Italy for work and there is a 6 hr time difference...I did go to a Catholic church today (I'm not Catholic, but in Italy its about the only churches).

I am going to my "my" church for 3 or 4 weeks while over here.

[redfalcon]

I don't believe in religion. I'm not sure about God, but I definitely don't believe in the biblical version. That being said, I was raised Methodist and I often go through the "What if I am wrong" debate with myself. I still think the scientific evidence greatly out weights the religious aspects, though, and the other point which I can't get over is that if there is a God, I am pretty sure that the "well I will believe so that I don't go to hell" system isn't the way he intended it to work, anyway. I hope I'm right, though. It'll be getting a little warm for me for a while if I am wrong.

[Skyhook79]

Well, I suppose, even after seeking philosophical justifications for my christian beliefs, upon being up close and personal to what seemed to me to be incomprehensible suffering of children, I became like Ivan Fyodorovich Karamazov; and that answer didn't quite seem satisfying anymore and neither did any fideistic support; an emotional begrudging despair overcame any reason. It's not God that I don't accept...but I must respectfully return him my ticket.



Yeah wouldn't it be great if there was no suffering or pain on Earth. Actually thats how God designed it but we all know what happened in the Garden of Eden and everything changed.
It's a hard thing to reason out in our human minds as to the answers of things such as those you brought up but one thing that doesn't change is the promises of God remain forever.
Jesus said "In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world" John 16:33

[jmog]

I don't believe in religion. I'm not sure about God, but I definitely don't believe in the biblical version. That being said, I was raised Methodist and I often go through the "What if I am wrong" debate with myself. I still think the scientific evidence greatly out weights the religious aspects, though, and the other point which I can't get over is that if there is a God, I am pretty sure that the "well I will believe so that I don't go to hell" system isn't the way he intended it to work, anyway. I hope I'm right, though. It'll be getting a little warm for me for a while if I am wrong.

One, as a scientist I'd love to see the science that "out weighs" the existence of God :). Through science God can neither be proven to exist nor proven to not exist.

[believer]

One, as a scientist I'd love to see the science that "out weighs" the existence of God :). Through science God can neither be proven to exist nor proven to not exist.

The great thing about God is even if you deny He exists it you imply the possibility that He does. God made us all free agents. Drives people crazy. ;)

[ernest_t_bass]

Bumped for Lowry.

[ICEMAN59]

I'm a religious liberal (socially, anyway) . . . there are PLENTY of us . . . but go ahead and keep generalizing and stereotyping . . . and fair-minded people will go on assuming your posts lack substance, given your obvious bias.

More people really ought to try discussing the merits of actual issues, without negatively injecting labels into the mix . . . it's absolutely childish and ridiculous, and a big part of what's wrong with the political dialogue in this country. I mean really, are people actually being influenced by these faux news programs and the fat-headed idiots who anchor them . . . based on a lot of these posts, apparently they are. Which is precisely why many of us just choose to ignore this mess and the country is left to choose from a diluted pool of political participants.

Sad.

[BoatShoes]

Yeah wouldn't it be great if there was no suffering or pain on Earth. Actually thats how God designed it but we all know what happened in the Garden of Eden and everything changed.
It's a hard thing to reason out in our human minds as to the answers of things such as those you brought up but one thing that doesn't change is the promises of God remain forever.
Jesus said "In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world" John 16:33

See, this is what I was referring to in the other thread. This answer just reeks of fideism. It purports to provide an answer grounded in certainty but that really isn't the case at all and just appeals to the limits of human reason. I'd rather just say I'm not sure than attempt a truth claim at this point.

[believer]

More people really ought to try discussing the merits of actual issues, without negatively injecting labels into the mix . . . it's absolutely childish and ridiculous, and a big part of what's wrong with the political dialogue in this country. I mean really, are people actually being influenced by these faux news programs and the fat-headed idiots who anchor them . . ..

Liberals love to lecture folks about generalizing, stereotyping and labeling while simultaneously generalizing, stereotyping, and labeling those they lecture.

[ICEMAN59]

Liberals love to lecture folks about generalizing, stereotyping and labeling while simultaneously generalizing, stereotyping, and labeling those they lecture.

The fat-headed idiots refers to talking heads of all political persuasion, be it MSNBC, FOX, etc . . . so, I guess I fail to see your point. Nice use of the
"bold" feature, though. I think you missed the point . . . . the liberal - bad/good, conservative - bad/good thing, it's lame.

[believer]

^^^It doesn't negate the fact that you used stereotyping, labeling, and generalization to make your argument against those who do the same rather than using facts to discuss the merits of the issue.

The use of "childish", "faux news", "fat-headed idiots", etc. only demonstrates that you too are a member of the "diluted pool of political participants." No?

[ICEMAN59]

^^^It doesn't negate the fact that you used stereotyping, labeling, and generalization to make your argument against those who do the same rather than using facts to discuss the merits of the issue.

The use of "childish", "faux news", "fat-headed idiots", etc. only demonstrates that you too are a member of the "diluted pool of political participants." No?

Haha . . . OK.

Waste of my time.

[Skyhook79]

See, this is what I was referring to in the other thread. This answer just reeks of fideism. It purports to provide an answer grounded in certainty but that really isn't the case at all and just appeals to the limits of human reason. I'd rather just say I'm not sure than attempt a truth claim at this point.


Jesus is the truth,the light and the way. I will continue to walk by Faith you may call it "fideism" but I don't. God tells us that not all things will be revealed to us on Earth but we will have fullness of knowledge in Heaven or Hell.

[O-Trap]

Jesus is the truth,the light and the way. I will continue to walk by Faith you may call it "fideism" but I don't. God tells us that not all things will be revealed to us on Earth but we will have fullness of knowledge in Heaven or Hell.

I'm going to be honest, these kinds of answers only frustrated me as a non-believing individual. I am only thankful that I found Christians who did not adopt this mentality when it came to explaining to me the love of Christ. I hope you know that I mean no offense to you personally, but that I can sympathize with those who point out that a person who does not believe is given no more reason to do so by such a statement.

[I Wear Pants]

^^^It doesn't negate the fact that you used stereotyping, labeling, and generalization to make your argument against those who do the same rather than using facts to discuss the merits of the issue.

The use of "childish", "faux news", "fat-headed idiots", etc. only demonstrates that you too are a member of the "diluted pool of political participants." No?I don't think he meant "faux news" like many people use it to make a play on "Fox News". I think he meant it as a general lable for all the news commentary people.

Also, I was trying to sell hams today and some dude tried to talk to me about Jesus and was asking if I pray everyday and such. I was nice at first and just kind of let him talk, but then he kept asking and I had to tell him that I was trying to work and that he was going to have to leave me alone and if he couldn't abide that then I'd have to call security. I was nice about it but I was trying to do my job and it was rude of him.

[Skyhook79]

I'm going to be honest, these kinds of answers only frustrated me as a non-believing individual. I am only thankful that I found Christians who did not adopt this mentality when it came to explaining to me the love of Christ. I hope you know that I mean no offense to you personally, but that I can sympathize with those who point out that a person who does not believe is given no more reason to do so by such a statement.


I'm curious to know what reason you would give a non-believer to cause them to want to believe?

[Skyhook79]

I'm going to be honest, these kinds of answers only frustrated me as a non-believing individual. I am only thankful that I found Christians who did not adopt this mentality when it came to explaining to me the love of Christ. I hope you know that I mean no offense to you personally, but that I can sympathize with those who point out that a person who does not believe is given no more reason to do so by such a statement.


Scripture frustrates you?

[CenterBHSFan]

Honestly, the only "religious" people that have tried to push their beliefs onto me was Jehovah's Witnesses. Who, by the way, my stepfather loves to debate them (he's staunchly catholic). Several years ago he invited 3 people who were door-knocking inside and about an hour later they left either angry or frustrated, not sure. It was hilarious!

[O-Trap]

Scripture frustrates you?

Not at all. People who use Scripture as a cop-out for not thinking for themselves frustrate me.

[Skyhook79]

Not at all. People who use Scripture as a cop-out for not thinking for themselves frustrate me.


Cop out?? So if you try and follow scripture and apply it to your life your a "cop out"? You make a personal decision on whether to follow Jesus's words. That is thinking for yourself.
If there is a different way to enter Heaven other than thru Jesus please enlighten me.

[ernest_t_bass]

Cop out?? So if you try and follow scripture and apply it to your life your a "cop out"? You make a personal decision on whether to follow Jesus's words. That is thinking for yourself.
If there is a different way to enter Heaven other than thru Jesus please enlighten me.

I think what he is saying is... Instead of simply listing scripture as rebuttal or an answer to a question, apply the scripture to your own thought out response. Anyone can list scripture, but when you apply it to a well thought response, it goes further to show that you actually know what you're talking about and have invested the time into thinking about it.

[O-Trap]

I think what he is saying is... Instead of simply listing scripture as rebuttal or an answer to a question, apply the scripture to your own thought out response. Anyone can list scripture, but when you apply it to a well thought response, it goes further to show that you actually know what you're talking about and have invested the time into thinking about it.

Moreover, applying Scripture to someone who doesn't accept Scripture is nothing but an exercise in futility. It reminds me of a David Cross standup skit when he tries to discuss the war in Iraq with a woman who has bumper stickers that allude to it. Her responses are constantly nothing but other bumper sticker one-liners.

When I used to ask "why" about Bible verses that were spoken to me, I always got another trite Bible verse cop-out, like "his ways are higher than our ways," or "do not test the Lord," or some other such appeal. No thought. No willingness to actually inquire any further into anything.

If you're NOT a Bible-believer, then appealing to the Bible doesn't work. It's no more legitimate than expecting an accuser to believe a defendant on trial for burglary when he says he didn't do it. If you already don't believe it, using it as a reference to prove itself doesn't work.

I do believe that the Bible is the inspired Work of God (Word of God, but better understood today using the word "Work" I think). I believe that John 14:6 is true. However, people spouting the Bible and then either appealing TO the Bible for their defense or chalking it up to "faith" (my BIGGEST pet peeve) are NOT my reason for arriving in a life I hope to dedicate to serving God.

[believer]

Moreover, applying Scripture to someone who doesn't accept Scripture is nothing but an exercise in futility. It reminds me of a David Cross standup skit when he tries to discuss the war in Iraq with a woman who has bumper stickers that allude to it. Her responses are constantly nothing but other bumper sticker one-liners.

When I used to ask "why" about Bible verses that were spoken to me, I always got another trite Bible verse cop-out, like "his ways are higher than our ways," or "do not test the Lord," or some other such appeal. No thought. No willingness to actually inquire any further into anything.

If you're NOT a Bible-believer, then appealing to the Bible doesn't work. It's no more legitimate than expecting an accuser to believe a defendant on trial for burglary when he says he didn't do it. If you already don't believe it, using it as a reference to prove itself doesn't work.

I do believe that the Bible is the inspired Work of God (Word of God, but better understood today using the word "Work" I think). I believe that John 14:6 is true. However, people spouting the Bible and then either appealing TO the Bible for their defense or chalking it up to "faith" (my BIGGEST pet peeve) are NOT my reason for arriving in a life I hope to dedicate to serving God.

I agree, O-Trap.

However, I've had many heated discussions with non-believers who have injected, "and so where in the Bible does your God say that?"

Is that an appropriate time to apply Scripture to someone who doesn't accept Scripture or is it still just an exercise in futility? Or should I - by "faith" - hope that in my doing so (IE: sharing Scripture with the non-believer) that the Holy Spirit will do His "work" in that person...sort of plant the seed?

I was a scoffer at one time too. But someone had the courage of sharing God's Word (or Work) with me. I'm glad they did.

Using a secularized approach to serving God may or may not be the best approach to winning hearts to The Way. But then again, Jesus did hang with the lepers and party with the sinners.

[BoatShoes]

Cop out?? So if you try and follow scripture and apply it to your life your a "cop out"? You make a personal decision on whether to follow Jesus's words. That is thinking for yourself.
If there is a different way to enter Heaven other than thru Jesus please enlighten me.

Well, it seems to me you ought to present a reason as to why a nonbeliever might believe that Jesus is the way the truth and the life when there are competing claims in the marketplace of ideas. For instance you might advance towards a nonbeliever in the following way:

Whatever begins to exist has a cause. The Universe Began to Exist. The Cause of the universe is God. In order for God to be worthy of worship he would have qualities like those of Jesus Christ. The Resurrection of Christ was witnessed by X amount of first hand witnesses. Jesus was either Lord a liar or a lunatic and no one would withstand a crucifixion to preserve a lie and lunatics normally don't demonstrate the kind of moral character that Jesus did according to the Gospels. Therefore, it stands to Reason that Jesus is who he said he was and since he said that he is the way the truth and the life and the only way to get to heaven is to accept as a matter of fact that he died on the cross for all of the sins of mankind and take him as your personal savior.

Now, there are problems with all of the premises within that overarching argument as there are with any attempt to deal with metaphysical questions but this to me is along the lines of how you ought to approach a non-believer. Simply saying; "Jesus is the way and the truth and the life" gives no better reason to accept that particular truth claim than say, "Last night I was visited by Invisible Green Goblins and they say that the only path to eternal life is to accept them as the personal God's over your life." To me, it is quite a house of reason to build up a justified belief in contemporary fundamentalist Christianity from a beginning Cause-God with no definable characteristics other than that it must have some power to an intimate and personal God who is simultaneously the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit and who manifested itself on Earth as a man called Jesus Christ several thousand years ago in order to serve as the sacrifice for his own mortal creation's sins and rise again as a zombie so as to live forever and once again return to earth for eternal reign...But, as O-trap and plenty of other very intelligent people have demonstrated, it can be done.

To me, if you're going to hold such particularized beliefs about the nature of the world and life and death such a reasoning process is necessary to do so coherently. For me personally, I guess I'm just not interested in metaphysics anymore as I really can't get passed the first step in the analysis because whether you're a theologian or a naturalist quantum physicist, at this point it always seems to reach a point where it's beyond our understanding and rather than justifying a belief in a God, of which particular version I wouldn't be sure anyways, I prefer to just say that I'm not sure at this point. There may even be a knowledge deficiency that might prevent us from playing the odds to avoid an eternal damnation and even then whether a self-interested faux belief to avoid damnation would qualify as the requisite mental state. But with all those concerns and many others aside, for me, again, at this point, I just tend to just avoid the debate and not make a claim as to whether God does in fact or doesn't exist because hell I don't know.

[O-Trap]

I agree, O-Trap.

However, I've had many heated discussions with non-believers who have injected, "and so where in the Bible does your God say that?"

Is that an appropriate time to apply Scripture to someone who doesn't accept Scripture or is it still just an exercise in futility? Or should I - by "faith" - hope that in my doing so (IE: sharing Scripture with the non-believer) that the Holy Spirit will do His "work" in that person...sort of plant the seed?

Oh certainly if the question being asked has to do with what the Bible says. However, if the question is directed toward the authority of God or the Bible, quoting the Bible is fruitless, because it doesn't answer the question, really (at best, circularly). In the mind of a non-believer, it would be no different than me saying I was the ultimate supreme dictator mac daddy of the universe, and if you needed proof, you would just need to ask the ultimate supreme dictator mac daddy of the universe - me.


I was a scoffer at one time too. But someone had the courage of sharing God's Word (or Work) with me. I'm glad they did.

Same here, brother. Same here. I am continually thankful for the fact that my mentor had the patience to spend YEARS with me, helping reach me on terms I could accept, and who did so with such conviction that it was the first time I got to know someone who REALLY believed that there was POWER in his faith ... that it was the truth.


Using a secularized approach to serving God may or may not be the best approach to winning hearts to The Way. But then again, Jesus did hang with the lepers and party with the sinners.

Jesus did explain the "Kingdom of Heaven" in secular, contemporary terms to his audience.