Our rights and the government

[majorspark]

We have the right to keep and bear arms...
Should we demand the government provide us with an AR-15?

We have the right to free speech...
Should we demand the government provide us with a radio/televisions station?

We have the right to worship as we please...
Should we demand the government build us a church, synagogue, mosque, etc...?

We have the right to healthcare...
Should we demand the government provide us with health insurance?

If the government provides us with our rights, do we really have rights?

Obviously my questions are rhetorical. True freedom is born in an individuals right to provide for himself or for his fellow man if he so chooses, absent of government coercion.

Let hear from the "free" huddle.

[ernest_t_bass]

Free speech... the government shouldn't go out of its way to monitor free speech... Fox News. Let them say what they want. We have the right to have a dissenting opinion!

[isadore]

should we demand the government provide courts to "establish justice" we should and do
should we demand the government provide police to "insure domestic tranquility" we should and do
should we demand the government provide military to "provide for the common defense" we should and do
should we demand the government provide health care to "promote the general welfare" we should and have done for some with medicare and medicaid
all these demands help to 'secure the blessing of liberty"

[ernest_t_bass]

All those aforementioned demands are public goods, that the government MUST provide. They MUST provide them b/c market failures are present. If the government does not provide them, the market will fail to provide such goods, b/c it would be unreasonable to exclude non-payers and unreasonable to charge each person individually. Government needs to check to make sure it is a public good before they provide it.

General Motors is not a public good. They are a business, and they should have failed.

[isadore]

the present healthcare system is an obvious example of a market failure.

[iclfan2]

Why? My healthcare is fine.

[tk421]

I'm still waiting on my free shelter and food. I would think that those would be even more vital to Americans than having health care, but you never hear anyone say anything about that.

[ernest_t_bass]

the present healthcare system is an obvious example of a market failure.


If the government fails to adequately provide something, it is not a market failure. A market failure is when the market, left on its own, would fail to produce something, b/c there is no incentive for producers.

[isadore]

listen closer
there is insufficent attempts to fill in the wholes in our economic system with food stamps, housing allowances and medicaid

[isadore]

the present healthcare system is an obvious example of a market failure.


If the government fails to adequately provide something, it is not a market failure. A market failure is when the market, left on its own, would fail to produce something, b/c there is no incentive for producers.


as in failing to provide a necessary service to several million Americans at an affordable level of price

that might not fit your book definition, but it is a failure that is causing untold expense and suffering

[ernest_t_bass]

Yes, I am providing the textbook definition of a market failure. What you are describing is a situation in which the government is failing to provide the public good.

[Cleveland Buck]

Answer the question posed above. Why is the government not providing my food and shelter? Isn't that part of 'general welfare'?

[isadore]

a public good that the government has so far not been allowed to provide.

[Cleveland Buck]

They should provide it though, right? They better hurry up and do it so I can quit my job.

[ernest_t_bass]

The purpose of government "safety nets" (which would be your food and shelter) are for people who are experiencing unfavorable economic conditions. When you hear the term "welfare," you automatically think negative thoughts b/c of the people out there that abuse it. Same with food stamps, WIC, subsidized housing, etc.

If you are experiencing unfavorable economic conditions, then the Govt will be there to help you out with food and shelter. When you no longer need it, but choose to stay on it, you are abusing it. Or, if you just "choose" not to go back to work, since you are on welfare, you are abusing it.

I hate big government, with a passion, but every society needs some type of safety net. Safety nets and/or public good are BOTH needed in situations where market failures are present.

[isadore]

so ernest, we need a public option, right.
tell me when you get done sticking needles in your FDR, stiglitz, krugman dolls, or are they your heroes for pushing and supporting a real safety net.

[CenterBHSFan]

I think that those folks who really want government intervention with health insurance need to step back and think about a few things.
- how efficient and effective has government handled health related programs so far? (try not to laugh)
- has our government ever learned its lesson? Or will it? (please don't laugh)
- who has read the VA thread? (stop laughing!)
- when high powered elected officials claim that they want a single-payer system and that it will take them 15-20 years to do it, do you believe them or do you think that they are lying? (you sound like a hyena)
- isn't the government just taking a group of people that we're already paying for (in one way or another) and giving them a title so that the government can tax us even more? (still laughing?)

[isadore]

while central you are often quite purposely hilarious, this time you are way off.
we have got the a health care system that fails to cover tens of millions of citizens, that gives us the lowest life expectancy of any industrialized nation with the highest infant mortality rate. these other nations have been able to design much more effective and inexpensive healthcare systems than we have. that is nothing to laugh about.

[tk421]

while central you are often quite purposely hilarious, this time you are way off.
we have got the a health care system that fails to cover tens of millions of citizens, that gives us the lowest life expectancy of any industrialized nation with the highest infant mortality rate. these other nations have been able to design much more effective and inexpensive healthcare systems than we have. that is nothing to laugh about.


And you honestly think/trust our elected officials to do something like that? I wouldn't trust anyone in office to babysit my cat, let alone design/implement a health care system for the U.S.

[Cleveland Buck]

Safety nets like unemployment and even welfare which are just general handouts to people that can be spent any way they choose are acceptable to me in a limited form and should really be run by each state. Any government entitlement into a specific industry like health care can not be financially sustained because the government's presence in that market will distort (meaning skyrocket) prices, which means everyone else will need help paying those prices, which means more government intervention, which means $12 trillion debt and crashing currency.

[ernest_t_bass]

so ernest, we need a public option, right.
tell me when you get done sticking needles in your FDR, stiglitz, krugman dolls, or are they your heroes for pushing and supporting a real safety net.


I'm just stating economic facts. I HATE big government.

[isadore]

while central you are often quite purposely hilarious, this time you are way off.
we have got the a health care system that fails to cover tens of millions of citizens, that gives us the lowest life expectancy of any industrialized nation with the highest infant mortality rate. these other nations have been able to design much more effective and inexpensive healthcare systems than we have. that is nothing to laugh about.


And you honestly think/trust our elected officials to do something like that? If so, you are more delusional than I thought. I wouldn't trust anyone in office to babysit my cat, let alone design/implement a health care system for the U.S.
it is sad you have so little faith in the American people. Our elected officials are a reflection of us, we select them. They may not baby sit your cat, but they run the institutions that protect you and your family, the police, courts and military.

[ernest_t_bass]

while central you are often quite purposely hilarious, this time you are way off.
we have got the a health care system that fails to cover tens of millions of citizens, that gives us the lowest life expectancy of any industrialized nation with the highest infant mortality rate. these other nations have been able to design much more effective and inexpensive healthcare systems than we have. that is nothing to laugh about.


I ain't gonna lie... this was a tough read
:huh:

[ernest_t_bass]

it is sad you have so little faith in the American people. Our elected officials are a reflection of us, we select them. They may not baby sit your cat, but they run the institutions that protect you and your family, the police, courts and military.


When elected, these officials focus on ONE thing in particular, before thinking about the "public" .... RE-ELECTION.

While this may not be true for 100% of all elected officials, it is definitely true for the majority.

[isadore]

Safety nets like unemployment and even welfare which are just general handouts to people that can be spent any way they choose are acceptable to me in a limited form and should really be run by each state. Any government entitlement into a specific industry like health care can not be financially sustained because the government's presence in that market will distort (meaning skyrocket) prices, which means everyone else will need help paying those prices, which means more government intervention, which means $12 trillion debt and crashing currency.
privatizing health care sky rocketed the price.
it kept the price much lower other nations with true public options.

[isadore]

while central you are often quite purposely hilarious, this time you are way off.
we have got the a health care system that fails to cover tens of millions of citizens, that gives us the lowest life expectancy of any industrialized nation with the highest infant mortality rate. these other nations have been able to design much more effective and inexpensive healthcare systems than we have. that is nothing to laugh about.


I ain't gonna lie... this was a tough read
:huh:

I will see if the illustrated version is available with pictures of people dying before their time.

[CenterBHSFan]

A "letters to the editor" from my local paper, The Times Leader:


Silent No More

Dear Editor,
Why protest now?
In the last few weeks, I have been asked, (1) "Where were you when the last administration was spending out of control?"
My response: I was in the same comfortable place that many are today ... in my kitchen with friends complaining about the Government ... but doing nothing.
I was part of the "Silent Majority."
Question (2) "Why are you protesting now?"
My response: I woke up when the government moved too fast on too many issues while spending too much of the tax payers' money.
I woke up to the reality that some years ago the government began to grow ... slowly at first. With each consecutive election more control was grabbed by the government. Today, the people are in danger of losing not just their money, but their Constitutional rights and freedoms, possible forever. The government totally dismisses the will of people. It seems there is a war between the people and the government. A war in which there is no winner. A war in which the foundation of our country could be forever destroyed.
All who love this country need to wake up, stand up and speak up!
We need to do whatever we can to protect the freedoms with which God has blessed this great nation. We need to do it now, today! Be "Silent No More!"
The government needs to slow down and listen to the will of the people.
The people need to know the candidate for whom they are voting.
Campaign speeches, do not necessarily reflect the beliefs of the person making the speech.
If we do our homework and find out what candidates stood for before he or she decided to run for office we should get a better picture of what direction they will lead the nation.


http://www.timesleaderonline.com/page/category.detail/nav/5007/Letters-to-the-editor.html

[Cleveland Buck]

Safety nets like unemployment and even welfare which are just general handouts to people that can be spent any way they choose are acceptable to me in a limited form and should really be run by each state. Any government entitlement into a specific industry like health care can not be financially sustained because the government's presence in that market will distort (meaning skyrocket) prices, which means everyone else will need help paying those prices, which means more government intervention, which means $12 trillion debt and crashing currency.
privatizing health care sky rocketed the price.
it kept the price much lower other nations with true public options.


We don't have private health care. We have a health care system of a couple public options in Medicaid and Medicare, and the rest is subsidized by federal tax breaks and incentives. It is a mess. A truly private health care system would probably cost less than half of what we pay now for the same quality of care.

And other countries with socialized health care don't pay as much as we do because they ration the care. They would pay double or more if people could make an appointment and see their doctor within a week or if they didn't refuse treatment to terminal patients.

[isadore]

it is sad you have so little faith in the American people. Our elected officials are a reflection of us, we select them. They may not baby sit your cat, but they run the institutions that protect you and your family, the police, courts and military.


When elected, these officials focus on ONE thing in particular, before thinking about the "public" .... RE-ELECTION.

While this may not be true for 100% of all elected officials, it is definitely true for the majority.
sorry you are so cynical and distrustful of democracy. where is pinochet when you need him, no worries about re election and a distrust of a government role in the economy.

[isadore]

Safety nets like unemployment and even welfare which are just general handouts to people that can be spent any way they choose are acceptable to me in a limited form and should really be run by each state. Any government entitlement into a specific industry like health care can not be financially sustained because the government's presence in that market will distort (meaning skyrocket) prices, which means everyone else will need help paying those prices, which means more government intervention, which means $12 trillion debt and crashing currency.
privatizing health care sky rocketed the price.
it kept the price much lower other nations with true public options.


We don't have private health care. We have a health care system of a couple public options in Medicaid and Medicare, and the rest is subsidized by federal tax breaks and incentives. It is a mess. A truly private health care system would probably cost less than half of what we pay now for the same quality of care.

And other countries with socialized health care don't pay as much as we do because they ration the care. They would pay double or more if people could make an appointment and see their doctor within a week or if they didn't refuse treatment to terminal patients.


it became a mess when the non-profit healthcare providers like the blue crosses and blue shield switched to for profit, then the costs skyrocketed.
Other nations whose citizens live longer, whose babies are less likely to die, for around half the per capita cost of Americans healthcare, that sure must be rough on them. And the rationing charges are mainly baloney, they get a quality of care comparative with our own. Hey look at the results.

[CenterBHSFan]

What's the population differential between the U.S., the UK, France, and Canada?

[isadore]

What's the population differential between the U.S., the UK, France, and Canada?


gosh a rooties, lets see
USA 307 million
Japan 127 million
Germany 82 million
France 65 million
UK 62 million
Canada 34 million
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_population
370 million people who get to live longer than Americans and have fewere of their babies die while paying appreciably less for health care while having standard living living comparative to our own.

Of course we could throw in many other nations besides those listed above

[LJ]

If this discussion is going to keep going on about healthcare alone, I will begin moving posts to the healthcare thread.

[CenterBHSFan]

Well, I'm under the belief that it is OUR right to establish our standard of living as far as personal decisions, accountability and responsibility.

[isadore]

why, that was the subject introduced in the initial post of the thread by majorsparks when he/she began it. And the discussion has been about whether that was a right and whether it should be provided by government, both reflected in the title of the thread.
and it is so nice, snug and comfy here.

[LJ]

why, that was the subject introduced in the initial post of the thread by majorsparks when he/she began it. And the discussion has been about whether that was a right and whether it should be provided by government, both reflected in the title of the thread.
and it is so nice, snug and comfy here.


Discussing whether or not you feel it's a right is ok

Discussing the benefits and problems of the healthcare system and reform belong in the healthcare thread.

[ernest_t_bass]

Agree to disagree?

Healthcare is needed... but not for everyone.

Welfare is needed... but not for everyone.

Foodstamps are needed... but not for everyone.

[isadore]

healthcare should be available to any American

[ernest_t_bass]

AVAILABLE is the key word. Not mandated.

Welfare is available to those who need it, and qualify, same as most other safety nets.

When EVERYONE gets it, regardless, you are no longer providing a safety net, but a public good.

[CenterBHSFan]

Gosh a rooties.

I like it! :)

[I Wear Pants]

I still find it amazing that we live in "the greatest country on earth" and the richest one too and a good percentage of our population is absolutely fine with millions of our citizens going without health care.

[Davey Stone]

A "letters to the editor" from my local paper, The Times Leader:


Silent No More

Dear Editor,
Why protest now?
In the last few weeks, I have been asked, (1) "Where were you when the last administration was spending out of control?"
My response: I was in the same comfortable place that many are today ... in my kitchen with friends complaining about the Government ... but doing nothing.
I was part of the "Silent Majority."
Question (2) "Why are you protesting now?"
My response: I woke up when the government moved too fast on too many issues while spending too much of the tax payers' money.
I woke up to the reality that some years ago the government began to grow ... slowly at first. With each consecutive election more control was grabbed by the government. Today, the people are in danger of losing not just their money, but their Constitutional rights and freedoms, possible forever. The government totally dismisses the will of people. It seems there is a war between the people and the government. A war in which there is no winner. A war in which the foundation of our country could be forever destroyed.
All who love this country need to wake up, stand up and speak up!
We need to do whatever we can to protect the freedoms with which God has blessed this great nation. We need to do it now, today! Be "Silent No More!"
The government needs to slow down and listen to the will of the people.
The people need to know the candidate for whom they are voting.
Campaign speeches, do not necessarily reflect the beliefs of the person making the speech.
If we do our homework and find out what candidates stood for before he or she decided to run for office we should get a better picture of what direction they will lead the nation.


http://www.timesleaderonline.com/page/category.detail/nav/5007/Letters-to-the-editor.html




The reasoning that person who wrote the letter and people like them have is the reason I have no respect for 95% of these "Tea Party" people. They didn't protest because they didn't care what was going on because the president in office was a member of the party they support

[CenterBHSFan]

Isa,

My point about the number differential was that with America being so much more populated than those other countries, that our numbers are BOUND to be different than theirs.
It cannot, realistically, be helped.

[CenterBHSFan]

Davey Stone,

There were two reasons listed, not just one. :)

[ernest_t_bass]

I still find it amazing that we live in "the greatest country on earth" and the richest one too and a good percentage of our population is absolutely fine with millions of our citizens going without health care.


HEALTH
CARE
IS
NEEDED!

Not a "universal" mandated health care, that everyone must have. It should be like any other safety net. Said thing... it will get abused.

[isadore]

AVAILABLE is the key word. Not mandated.

Welfare is available to those who need it, and qualify, same as most other safety nets.

When EVERYONE gets it, regardless, you are no longer providing a safety net, but a public good.


well its not available to many and that is not good for the public.

[isadore]

Gosh a rooties.

I like it! :)
well thanks, it is suitably nonsensical, but I will, in all probability, beat it to death.

[ernest_t_bass]

well its not available to many and that is not good for the public.


I give up.

[CenterBHSFan]

well its not available to many and that is not good for the public.


I give up.


You've just been initiated into the never-ending conversation with Isa! You will have to learn to concede early, as Isa never will!

[isadore]

Isa,

My point about the number differential was that with America being so much more populated than those other countries, that our numbers are BOUND to be different than theirs.
It cannot, realistically, be helped.


lets see, when we talk about an area being more populated, we mean how crowded it is. Japan, France, UK, Germany are all much more populated than the United States. they have many more people per square mile or square kilometer than the United States.
each of those countries except Canada are much more populated than the United States.
Japan has 329 people per square kilometer and 127 million people
ttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Japan#Population
United States is 33 per square kilomter and 309 million people
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_population_density

[majorspark]

the present healthcare system is an obvious example of a market failure.


The present status of Medicare is an example of federal government failure. $36 trillion in unfunded liabilities. About to go cash flow negative.

You fail to grasp the point of this thread. An idividual has a right to be free to provide for himself the means to his rights. If our rights derive from the government, do we really have that right, if the power that provides it is not ourselves. Those that provide it can just as easily take it away or use it to coerce us to act as they please.

You also fail to explain to me why the federal government should be providing those who can't afford health insurance to protect themselves against finacial ruin and why the federal government should not provide arms to protect those who can't afford those arms to protect themselves from physical harm.

Before we can argue how the provision of those who have legitimate needs shoud be met, you must first answer the aforementioned question.

[isadore]

the present healthcare system is an obvious example of a market failure.


The present status of Medicare is an example of federal government failure. $36 trillion in unfunded liabilities. About to go cash flow negative.

You fail to grasp the point of this thread. An idividual has a right to be free to provide for himself the means to his rights. If our rights derive from the government, do we really have that right, if the power that provides it is not ourselves. Those that provide it can just as easily take it away or use it to coerce us to act as they please.

You also fail to explain to me why the federal government should be providing those who can't afford health insurance to protect themselves against finacial ruin and why the federal government should not provide arms to protect those who can't afford those arms to protect themselves from physical harm.

Before we can argue how the provision of those who have legitimate needs shoud be met, you must first answer the aforementioned question.


The government is an institution that was established by the people to secure their rights to life, liberty, the pursuit of happiness and promote our general welfare among other things. Without food, without shelter, without medical care Americans will die, they will loss that basic right to life. The present system that relies on private medical coverage puts millions of Americans in a situation without medical coverage, that is deadly. Americans have the right to own a gun, but most chose not to exercise that right and the vast majority live long lives with no need of them.

[ernest_t_bass]

DO YOU EVEN F'ING KNOW WHAT A FREE (MARKET) ECONOMY IS?

[isadore]

gosh a rooties, I am not sure. But I would guess something that has never really existed in our nation. But our government from the get go has always been involved in the market. From tariffs under Hamilton to protect our industries, use of government power to suppress strikes against industry then later to favor union organizations with the Wagner Act, to giving away free land under the homestead act to would be farmers. So it was ok to enter the market to protect and enrich these groups but not ok to provide for those in need of medical care. Oh, you may not have noticed but your capital lock is on.

[CenterBHSFan]

I'm having flashbacks to the days of old! :D

[isadore]

please tell me, what is Center BHS that you are a fan?

[LJ]

]

The present status of Medicare is an example of federal government failure. $36 trillion in unfunded liabilities. About to go cash flow negative.





. Americans have the right to own a gun, but most chose not to exercise that right and the vast majority live long lives with no need of them.


Both of you, if you present something as a fact you must back it up with a source.

[CenterBHSFan]

Speaking of guns, I believe that guns should be an automatic right to individuals. It's the registered gun users that you don't have to worry about, IMO. I admit to being a little skeptical about automatics, but I think that is a slippery slope that I don't think needs to be greased down. I also think that the majority of automatics are collectors, at least that is my best guess. Perhaps a higher tax on those might be the answer, and gun collectors can afford it, from my experience.
Also, I take care of two elderly and sick parents. The sheriff dept. can take up to 45 minutes and up to get to my house on a call. I'm not going to risk hoping that I'll have a good-natured burglar, thankyouverymuch.
......

Isa, Center is my favorite football position. They're the backbone of the line and unglorified. BHS is my school...er...my alma mater.

[ernest_t_bass]

Isa, Center is my favorite football position.

You just like the QB's hands on your unspeakables, don't you :)


I kid

[CenterBHSFan]

hahaha ernest!! I would guess that you would be right!
That is, IF I was still that young! I'm old enough to be a parent of those young'ens!

Oh...and I'm a girl! LOL


:P

[ernest_t_bass]

Well then, pardon me, ma'am :)

[isadore]

Speaking of guns, I believe that guns should be an automatic right to individuals. It's the registered gun users that you don't have to worry about, IMO. I admit to being a little skeptical about automatics, but I think that is a slippery slope that I don't think needs to be greased down. I also think that the majority of automatics are collectors, at least that is my best guess. Perhaps a higher tax on those might be the answer, and gun collectors can afford it, from my experience.
Also, I take care of two elderly and sick parents. The sheriff dept. can take up to 45 minutes and up to get to my house on a call. I'm not going to risk hoping that I'll have a good-natured burglar, thankyouverymuch.
......

Isa, Center is my favorite football position. They're the backbone of the line and unglorified. BHS is my school...er...my alma mater.


you want everyone to have an unchecked automatic right to acquire a gun?

centers are by far the most intelligent and talented people on the offensive line.

[CenterBHSFan]

No, I don't want everybody to have an unchecked automatic right to acquire a gun. That wouldn't happen, anyway. People still have to register and go through backround checks.

*glad to see we can agree on something! ;)

[isadore]

]

The present status of Medicare is an example of federal government failure. $36 trillion in unfunded liabilities. About to go cash flow negative.





. Americans have the right to own a gun, but most chose not to exercise that right and the vast majority live long lives with no need of them.


Both of you, if you present something as a fact you must back it up with a source.

"In 2004, 36.5% of Americans reported having a gun in their home and in 1997, 40% of Americans reported having a gun in their homes. At this time there were approximately 44 million gun owners in the United States. This means that 25 percent of all adults, and 40 percent of American households, owned at least one firearm. These owners possessed 192 million firearms, of which 65 million were handguns
"http://www-news.uchicago.edu/releases/07/pdf/070410.guns.norc.pdf


"American Life Expectancy Up to 78"
http://www.corporatelogo.com/hotnews/american-life-expectancy-up-to-78.html

I always preferred daffy duck and bugs bunny to mickey mouse.

[isadore]

No, I don't want everybody to have an unchecked automatic right to acquire a gun. That wouldn't happen, anyway. People still have to register and go through backround checks.

*glad to see we can agree on something! ;)


right, we agree about centers, make the snap then block with some goon of a nose guard right over you.

[majorspark]

]

The present status of Medicare is an example of federal government failure. $36 trillion in unfunded liabilities. About to go cash flow negative.





. Americans have the right to own a gun, but most chose not to exercise that right and the vast majority live long lives with no need of them.


Both of you, if you present something as a fact you must back it up with a source.


Damn broke a rule already.
http://money.cnn.com/2008/03/03/news/economy/104239768.fortune/index.htm

http://www.ncpa.org/pub/ba662

What if Americans choose to not exercise their right to purchase health insurance?

[isadore]

cost should not prevent any American from receiving medical care. if cost is removed as a determining factor and a person can refuse to receive medical care that is their choice.

[Cleveland Buck]

Nothing is free. Cost is always a factor.

[CenterBHSFan]

But the thing is, our government now wants to fine and/or jail folks who do not bend to the government's will.

Hey! Let's just go back to a monarchy! You know....the REAL monarchy of the European variety! Dependency is GRRRRRRRRRRREATTTTTTTTTTTT!!!!

http://jensorlie.files.wordpress.com/2009/01/tony-the-tiger-frosties.jpg

[isadore]

thats what governments do to people who violate the laws passed by popularly elected legislatures.

now it we are considering monarchy lets go for the real thing, not those pale european remanants of things past.

but none of it matches to the sugar high of Tony's frosted flakes.

[CenterBHSFan]

but none of it matches to the sugar high of Tony's frosted flakes.

AHAHAHA!!!