U.S. National debt exceeds legal limit.

[majorspark]

The latest calculations show the National Debt approved by Congress last February exceeding the debt ceiling. In other words Congress is breaking the law. The debt limit was set at $12.104 trillion. The latest posting by the Treasury shows the debt to be $12.135 trillion. But don't worry this will not halt federal spending anytime soon.

http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2009/12/16/politics/politicalhotsheet/entry5987341.shtml

A senior Treasury official told CBS News that the department has some "extraordinary accounting tools" it can use to give the government breathing room in the range of $150-billion when the Debt exceeds the Debt Ceiling.

Were it not for those "tools," the U.S. Government would not have the statutory authority to borrow any more money. It might block issuance of Social Security checks and require a shutdown of some parts of the federal government.

Pending in Congress is a measure to increase the Debt Limit by $290 billion, which amounts to six more weeks of routine borrowing for the federal government. (The House just passed the increase, though the Senate has yet to act. It is expected to approve the measure.)

I wish I had access to these "extraordinary accounting tools" in my business. I wonder how many US businessmen are rotting in federal prison for using some of those "extraordinary accounting tools?"

Federal spending is now going beyond irresponsibility and now bordering on criminal. What is it going to take to get people to understand what is going on and demand accountability? We need to decide what our priorities are and take an ax federal budget.

I hate tax increases but at least it gets peoples attention. Instead the federal government disguises the cost of their out of control spending by indirect taxation of the lower/middle economic classes. Using regulatory fees, corporate taxes etc. that are passed on to the consumer, and uncontrolled printing of cash slowly eating away at the value of the dollar.

There is going to be hell to pay when the coming economic shit storm hits. The thing is many of the politicians who caused it and refuse to do anything about it will be dead or drueling in their wheelchairs when payment comes due.

[ccrunner609]

I think I know what 2012 is for.

[ernest_t_bass]

I think I know what 2012 is for.


What?

[derek bomar]

here's a list of this decades changes to the ceiling in terms of billions...

111 Stat. 648 Increased the debt limit to 5,950.0
June 28, 2002
116 Stat. 734 Increased the debt limit to 6,400.0
May 27, 2003
117 Stat. 710 Increased the debt limit to 7,384.0
November 19, 2004
118 Stat. 2337 Increased the debt limit to 8,184.0
March 20, 2006
120 Stat. 289 Increased the debt limit to 8,965.0
September 29, 2007
121 Stat. 988 Increased the debt limit to 9,815.0
July 30, 2008
122 Stat. 2908 Increased the debt limit to 10,615.0
October 3, 2008
122 Stat. 3790 Increased the debt limit to 11,315.0
February 17, 2009
123 Stat. 366 Increased the debt limit to 12,104.0


one guy (W.) and one party (Reps) were in charge for most of the majority of the 80% (roughly) increase to the ceiling we saw from 2002-2008. I am sure CC and the like were just as outraged then as they are now.

[queencitybuckeye]

So your level-set is that if Barry isn't any worse than Dub, he's doing OK?

[derek bomar]

So your level-set is that if Barry isn't any worse than Dub, he's doing OK?


well, in order to do "as bad" he'd have to raise the ceiling to almost 20 trill to have as much of an impact in terms of percentage increase to the ceiling as Dubs presidency had...not saying I want it raised that high, and not saying I want it raised at all. I don't want it raised, I want it lowered. I just want to make sure everyone's aware that this isn't only B.O.'s doing like most want to believe

[Glory Days]

I am just going off the top of my head, but weren't the democrats in control of congress during this time? and congress controls the budget dont they?

120 Stat. 289 Increased the debt limit to 8,965.0
September 29, 2007
121 Stat. 988 Increased the debt limit to 9,815.0
July 30, 2008
122 Stat. 2908 Increased the debt limit to 10,615.0
October 3, 2008
122 Stat. 3790 Increased the debt limit to 11,315.0
February 17, 2009
123 Stat. 366 Increased the debt limit to 12,104.0

[derek bomar]

well you just conveniently left off the 2002 #...which was 50% lower than the 2007 #...and I did state the majority of time controlled by Republicans, which would imply that not 100% of it was there fault...didn't know I'd have to spell it out for you.

[majorspark]

So your level-set is that if Barry isn't any worse than Dub, he's doing OK?


well, in order to do "as bad" he'd have to raise the ceiling to almost 20 trill to have as much of an impact in terms of percentage increase to the ceiling as Dubs presidency had...not saying I want it raised that high, and not saying I want it raised at all. I don't want it raised, I want it lowered. I just want to make sure everyone's aware that this isn't only B.O.'s doing like most want to believe

Most on here realize our debt is decades in the making spanning a long line of politicians. Obama is captian of the ship now and his orders are full steam ahead. His crew (congress) is fueling the ship with our cash. The passengers (the American people) get to enjoy the shipwreck. Get your lifeboat ready.

As for 20 trillion. It is no longer unheard of that the debt will reach that milestone.
http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/national_debt_hits_12_trillion_will_double_by_2019/

The National Debt has increased about $1.6 trillion on Mr. Obama’s watch, though less than $4.9 trillion run up during the presidency of George W. Bush.

But the White House budget review issued in August projects that by the end of the current fiscal year on Sept 30th, the National Debt could top $14 trillion. It gets worse. The same document projects that by the end of the decade, the National Debt will hit $24.5 trillion — exceeding the Gross Domestic Product projected for 2019 of $22.8 trillion.

[QuakerOats]

And Hillary is in Denmark espousing the gifting of $100 billion from countries such as ours so that marxist tyrants can continue to develop and we can pay for their pollution issues.

Are the people now running this nation absolutely and completely INSANE?

They ought to be run out of their jobs today.

[derek bomar]

How are the projections made? What increases to the deficit do they foresee coming that are purely Obama's doing, and not just more interest on already borrowed money?

[derek bomar]

And Hillary is in Denmark espousing the gifting of $100 billion from countries such as ours so that marxist tyrants can continue to develop and we can pay for their pollution issues.

Are the people now running this nation absolutely and completely INSANE?

They ought to be run out of their jobs today.


can you stop it with the marxist bull shit?

[majorspark]

Oh and something else that will do wonders for helping us reach new debt milestones...

Hillary Clinton is out promising 10's of billions of our dollars to two-bit dictators to in the name of unproven man made global warming. What a joke.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/12/17/clinton-ready-join-b-climate-aid-fund/

[majorspark]

Looks like Quaker beat me to it.

[majorspark]

How are the projections made? What increases to the deficit do they foresee coming that are purely Obama's doing, and not just more interest on already borrowed money?

Remember the federal government has access to "extraordinary accounting tools".

[derek bomar]

How are the projections made? What increases to the deficit do they foresee coming that are purely Obama's doing, and not just more interest on already borrowed money?

Remember the federal government has access to "extraordinary accounting tools".


well that didn't answer my question

[Glory Days]

well you just conveniently left off the 2002 #...which was 50% lower than the 2007 #...and I did state the majority of time controlled by Republicans, which would imply that not 100% of it was there fault...didn't know I'd have to spell it out for you.


how is 4 out of 8 years the majority of the time? sounds more like equal amount of times.

[derek bomar]

well you just conveniently left off the 2002 #...which was 50% lower than the 2007 #...and I did state the majority of time controlled by Republicans, which would imply that not 100% of it was there fault...didn't know I'd have to spell it out for you.


how is 4 out of 8 years the majority of the time? sounds more like equal amount of times.


nvm

fun with #'s...
here goes: the d's increased it (under bush) 29.7% while the R's under Bush increased it 37.5%

[Footwedge]

well you just conveniently left off the 2002 #...which was 50% lower than the 2007 #...and I did state the majority of time controlled by Republicans, which would imply that not 100% of it was there fault...didn't know I'd have to spell it out for you.


how is 4 out of 8 years the majority of the time? sounds more like equal amount of times.


First 2 years iof Bush 43...the House and Senate were split. 2002 through 2006..both controlled by GOP Last 2 years, both controlled by dems with a GOP holding office and veto power.

As Sparky alluded to above...to blame one party over another is lunacy in itself.

Since Reagan was in power the national debt went up at a rate 3 to 2 over the yearly rate of Dems as president. This has been linked and proven over and over again.

Glory, you are simply misinformed if you think the GOP is better at keeping the public debt growth in order.

They are the bigger offenders. /Case.

[Glory Days]

thats awesome, they still increased it and show no signs of stopping. come back in a few years and compare the same amount of time that obama and the democrats held office to the republicans and bush held office then your comparison will make sense.



Glory, you are simply misinformed if you think the GOP is better at keeping the public debt growth in order.

They are the bigger offenders. /Case.


never said they were better.

[0311sdp]

here's a list of this decades changes to the ceiling in terms of billions...

111 Stat. 648 Increased the debt limit to 5,950.0
June 28, 2002
116 Stat. 734 Increased the debt limit to 6,400.0
May 27, 2003
117 Stat. 710 Increased the debt limit to 7,384.0
November 19, 2004
118 Stat. 2337 Increased the debt limit to 8,184.0
March 20, 2006
120 Stat. 289 Increased the debt limit to 8,965.0
September 29, 2007
121 Stat. 988 Increased the debt limit to 9,815.0
July 30, 2008
122 Stat. 2908 Increased the debt limit to 10,615.0
October 3, 2008
122 Stat. 3790 Increased the debt limit to 11,315.0
February 17, 2009
123 Stat. 366 Increased the debt limit to 12,104.0


one guy (W.) and one party (Reps) were in charge for most of the majority of the 80% (roughly) increase to the ceiling we saw from 2002-2008. I am sure CC and the like were just as outraged then as they are now.
Congress controls spending, Dems controlled both Houses during those years. (but there is plenty of blame for both parties)

[derek bomar]

here's a list of this decades changes to the ceiling in terms of billions...

111 Stat. 648 Increased the debt limit to 5,950.0
June 28, 2002
116 Stat. 734 Increased the debt limit to 6,400.0
May 27, 2003
117 Stat. 710 Increased the debt limit to 7,384.0
November 19, 2004
118 Stat. 2337 Increased the debt limit to 8,184.0
March 20, 2006
120 Stat. 289 Increased the debt limit to 8,965.0
September 29, 2007
121 Stat. 988 Increased the debt limit to 9,815.0
July 30, 2008
122 Stat. 2908 Increased the debt limit to 10,615.0
October 3, 2008
122 Stat. 3790 Increased the debt limit to 11,315.0
February 17, 2009
123 Stat. 366 Increased the debt limit to 12,104.0


one guy (W.) and one party (Reps) were in charge for most of the majority of the 80% (roughly) increase to the ceiling we saw from 2002-2008. I am sure CC and the like were just as outraged then as they are now.
Congress controls spending, Dems controlled both Houses during those years. (but there is plenty of blame for both parties)


umm...no they didn't

[derek bomar]

http://www.cbpp.org/cms/index.cfm?fa=view&id=3036

this link pretty much explains that the recession and the Bush tax cuts are mostly responsible for our current and future budget deficits...Barry's plans don't amount to much in future years, but the tax cuts are HUGE

[0311sdp]

here's a list of this decades changes to the ceiling in terms of billions...

111 Stat. 648 Increased the debt limit to 5,950.0
June 28, 2002
116 Stat. 734 Increased the debt limit to 6,400.0
May 27, 2003
117 Stat. 710 Increased the debt limit to 7,384.0
November 19, 2004
118 Stat. 2337 Increased the debt limit to 8,184.0
March 20, 2006
120 Stat. 289 Increased the debt limit to 8,965.0
September 29, 2007
121 Stat. 988 Increased the debt limit to 9,815.0
July 30, 2008
122 Stat. 2908 Increased the debt limit to 10,615.0
October 3, 2008
122 Stat. 3790 Increased the debt limit to 11,315.0
February 17, 2009
123 Stat. 366 Increased the debt limit to 12,104.0


one guy (W.) and one party (Reps) were in charge for most of the majority of the 80% (roughly) increase to the ceiling we saw from 2002-2008. I am sure CC and the like were just as outraged then as they are now.
Congress controls spending, Dems controlled both Houses during those years. (but there is plenty of blame for both parties)


umm...no they didn't
You are correct, it was 2006 when the Dems gained control of both houses and things have really improved since then.

[derek bomar]

here's a list of this decades changes to the ceiling in terms of billions...

111 Stat. 648 Increased the debt limit to 5,950.0
June 28, 2002
116 Stat. 734 Increased the debt limit to 6,400.0
May 27, 2003
117 Stat. 710 Increased the debt limit to 7,384.0
November 19, 2004
118 Stat. 2337 Increased the debt limit to 8,184.0
March 20, 2006
120 Stat. 289 Increased the debt limit to 8,965.0
September 29, 2007
121 Stat. 988 Increased the debt limit to 9,815.0
July 30, 2008
122 Stat. 2908 Increased the debt limit to 10,615.0
October 3, 2008
122 Stat. 3790 Increased the debt limit to 11,315.0
February 17, 2009
123 Stat. 366 Increased the debt limit to 12,104.0


one guy (W.) and one party (Reps) were in charge for most of the majority of the 80% (roughly) increase to the ceiling we saw from 2002-2008. I am sure CC and the like were just as outraged then as they are now.
Congress controls spending, Dems controlled both Houses during those years. (but there is plenty of blame for both parties)


umm...no they didn't
You are correct, it was 2006 when the Dems gained control of both houses and things have really improved since then.


well in terms of raising the debt ceiling as a % of previous ceilings it hasn't been increased as much as it had under republicans...just sayin

[0311sdp]

here's a list of this decades changes to the ceiling in terms of billions...

111 Stat. 648 Increased the debt limit to 5,950.0
June 28, 2002
116 Stat. 734 Increased the debt limit to 6,400.0
May 27, 2003
117 Stat. 710 Increased the debt limit to 7,384.0
November 19, 2004
118 Stat. 2337 Increased the debt limit to 8,184.0
March 20, 2006
120 Stat. 289 Increased the debt limit to 8,965.0
September 29, 2007
121 Stat. 988 Increased the debt limit to 9,815.0
July 30, 2008
122 Stat. 2908 Increased the debt limit to 10,615.0
October 3, 2008
122 Stat. 3790 Increased the debt limit to 11,315.0
February 17, 2009
123 Stat. 366 Increased the debt limit to 12,104.0


one guy (W.) and one party (Reps) were in charge for most of the majority of the 80% (roughly) increase to the ceiling we saw from 2002-2008. I am sure CC and the like were just as outraged then as they are now.
Congress controls spending, Dems controlled both Houses during those years. (but there is plenty of blame for both parties)


umm...no they didn't
You are correct, it was 2006 when the Dems gained control of both houses and things have really improved since then.


well in terms of raising the debt ceiling as a % of previous ceilings it hasn't been increased as much as it had under republicans...just sayin
We could argue who is the worst forever, I think that we can agree that both parties have done a terrible job in the last 10 years. We need a good 3rd party, but as in 1992 with Perot people just seem to not be willing to vote outside the Democrat or Republican parties. I can say that I voted for Perot both in 1992 and in 1996 and can't help but believe that at least financially the US would have been better off than it is now had he won.

[derek bomar]

I agree. I would love to see a viable 3rd party - someone who actually would be honest and tell people the hard truth and not be enslaved by special interests

[Last.Name.Left]

http://www.usdebtclock.org/

I'm not sure precisely how independent this source is, but no matter which way you cut it its got some big numbers with big consequences if a leader doesn't stop the spending.

[dwccrew]

http://www.cbpp.org/cms/index.cfm?fa=view&id=3036

this link pretty much explains that the recession and the Bush tax cuts are mostly responsible for our current and future budget deficits...Barry's plans don't amount to much in future years, but the tax cuts are HUGE


The tax cuts would have worked has Bush and Congress limited their spending. Instead they decided to continue to spend while cutting taxes. It doesn't work that way.

[eersandbeers]

http://www.cbpp.org/cms/index.cfm?fa=view&id=3036

this link pretty much explains that the recession and the Bush tax cuts are mostly responsible for our current and future budget deficits...Barry's plans don't amount to much in future years, but the tax cuts are HUGE


The tax cuts would have worked has Bush and Congress limited their spending. Instead they decided to continue to spend while cutting taxes. It doesn't work that way.



+1

Common sense would tell a 5th grader that you can't cut taxes with unprecedented spending.

[IggyPride00]

Common sense would tell a 5th grader that you can't cut taxes with unprecedented spending.

Not true. Ronald Reagan did exactly that (cut taxes and ramped up spending), and if you remember correctly Ronald Reagan taught us that "deficits don't matter", according to Dick Cheney that is. ;)

[dwccrew]

Common sense would tell a 5th grader that you can't cut taxes with unprecedented spending.

Not true. Ronald Reagan did exactly that (cut taxes and ramped up spending), and if you remember correctly Ronald Reagan taught us that "deficits don't matter", according to Dick Cheney that is. ;)


Which is exactly why we are in the situation we are in.

[Cleveland Buck]

True. Of course you can't raise taxes to pay for outrageous spending either because no matter how high you raise them the government will always collect right around the same amount of money anyway. I guess the answer is to stop spending.

[majorspark]

True. Of course you can't raise taxes to pay for outrageous spending either because no matter how high you raise them the government will always collect right around the same amount of money anyway. I guess the answer is to stop spending.


That is the only answer.

[IggyPride00]

I guess the answer is to stop spending.

That is impossible, because it opens you up to so many political attacks from the other side that allows people to demagogue on issues they don't even care about.

Even discuss cutting the defense budget, and you are suddenly anti-American and hate the troops. Discuss cutting Medicare, and you are accused of wanting Granny to die in the streets. Same thing applies to S.S, where you whip seniors up into a frenzy but scaring them.

You can't cut the soon to be nearly $500 billion a year we spend on interest on the national debt (nearly 25% of total tax collections), and we haven't even started discussing discretionary spending.

We could cut every dollar of spending outside of those 4 areas and we would still be running a huge deficit.

This is why we need the independent council that Judd Gregg and Kent Conrad have talked about setting up in terms of looking at ways to balance the budget through spending cuts and tax increases (it is going to take a combination of both as hard as that might be for some to accept). As long as it is up to Congress, it can never happen as political opportunism will always carry the day over doing what is right for the country.

[Cleveland Buck]

You are absolutely right that it would be political suicide. I didn't say my solution was realistic. I just said it was the solution. There are no realistic solutions. Even if they balance the budget (take in as much as they spend), we still have a $12 trillion debt that grows every year from interest. They can't just balance the budget, they have to take in more than they spend and start paying down the debt.

[I Wear Pants]

http://www.cbpp.org/cms/index.cfm?fa=view&id=3036

this link pretty much explains that the recession and the Bush tax cuts are mostly responsible for our current and future budget deficits...Barry's plans don't amount to much in future years, but the tax cuts are HUGE

I don't get why it's so confusing for people to realize that you can't cut taxes at the same time you increase spending (like when you start two wars on the other side of the globe). It's the same shit we did in Vietnam which led to that nice period in the 70s with fun new words like "stagflation" having to be invented.